John Cooper reviews MMIII, and finds loads of mistakes

Mark said:
"The biggest mistake WotC ever made was giving the source code for 3rd edition rules to its fans" isn't correct. The biggest mistake is not properly following it themselves. They aren't supposed to be magicians protecting the secrets to some cheap illusions.
Not true. I think the one thing people lose sight of all too often is that roleplaying, including D&D, is a game of Let's Pretend, with a complicated set of rules attached. That is the cheap illusion.

I am still far more interested in the monster concepts than minor inaccuracies. Or to put it another way, The rules should serve the game, not vice-versa.
 
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Whisperfoot said:
I am still far more interested in the monster concepts than minor inaccuracies. Or to put it another way, The rules should serve the game, not vice-versa.

Ya, but these are rule books. They should get the rules right, its not their job to determine how the rules of my game work. One of their jobs is to present the rules as they have been laid out and allow me and other DMs to change them.

"The rules should serve the game, not vice-versa" is a montra for DMs to not let the rules overshadow the game, not an excuse for publishers to cover up mistakes.
 

Crothian said:
"The rules should serve the game, not vice-versa" is a montra for DMs to not let the rules overshadow the game, not an excuse for publishers to cover up mistakes.
What cover up? No one from WoTC has been in to confirm or deny any wrong doing as far as I know. They'll release an errata and that will be the end of it, and hopefully they manage to not screw that up. I'm a bit disappointed that no one from Wizards has said anything official about it. Though I haven't looked all that hard, assuming a link or quote would show up here somewhere.
 


Vocenoctum said:
While I agree with most of what you said, the simple fact is the thread (and the other one in Publishing not connected to MM3) is praising his style and how it affects the review of this product.

So, I think criticising his style is perfectly valid in this thread since that's part of what it's about.

Criticising? Sure. Questioning it's validity? Nope. Who's arguing? Not me.

Vocenoctum said:
I don't read many reviews, I'm an impulse buyer. :)

Here's something that should help (click here), my new and bestest friend...
 

MerricB said:
I query your use of the word "original", as I've noticed a several complaints about MM3 about the very small number of monsters that are sourced from previous editions, compared to FF where a very significant proportion of creatures are 'just' rewrites of older monsters.

Regardless, the greatest test of whether a monster manual is good or not is this: do people use the monsters contained in its pages?

Cheers!
In this case, I was referring to "original" as in "not just advanced by Hit Dice or class levels".

Personally, I don't consider conversions from previous editions as "unorginal". In fact, count me among those very disappointed in MM3 for its lack of conversions. I'd much rather have an interesting monster from past editions, like the molydeus, baernaloth, or utukku than an ogre with slightly different ability scores and rock throwing, a gorilla-drider, or the desmodu's lesser cousins.

I can definitely see myself using some of the monsters from the MMIII. The ragewalker is an immediate standout, as are the death giant, redcap and the ssvaklor. However, I've easily used a third of the Fiend Folio already, and will continue to use more. So, in answer to the "greatest test", the MMIII scores much lower than the FF for me.
 

Shade said:
I'd much rather have an interesting monster from past editions, like the molydeus, baernaloth, or utukku than an ogre with slightly different ability scores and rock throwing, a gorilla-drider, or the desmodu's lesser cousins.

Bingo.
 

Whisperfoot said:
The biggest mistake WotC ever made was giving the source code for 3rd edition rules to its fans.

This "Ignorance is Bliss" theory is pretty astonishing. Just because Microsoft Windows is closed source doesn't mean that buggy code doesn't bother or affect me. I may not know just why it happens, but it's still pretty hard to ignore the Blue Screen of Death.

I actually think that a better informed fanbase is a happier, stronger, and more loyal fanbase.

Pure freeform, LARP-style, let's pretend roleplaying is an important segment of the hobby. I think it's great that there are players out there who couldn’t give a hoot about stats. In my 10-person group, probably 3 of the guys fall into that category, and I wouldn't trade them for anything.

But there's a large segment of gamers who enjoy taking the hood off the game and tinkering with the mechanics. Probably 2-3 of my players fall into that category. Being able to clearly see, understand, and manipulate the game mechanics significantly adds to their enjoyment of the game.

Whisperfoot said:
In first and second edition nobody complained about the mistakes because nobody knew how to deconstruct the stats. In fact, its safe to say that there was no way to deconstruct stats because the various values were set by the designers and then playtested to ensure that the monster worked the way it was intended.

Um, it's not like there were top secret TSR reference manuals on how to properly design AD&D monsters. You couldn't deconstruct the stats in first and second edition because there was never any underlying system behind it all. Monsters were designed by a series of educated guesses, comparisons to existing monsters, and playtests. Which resulted in widely varying results.

Remember all those interminable arguments over balance issues in 1st and 2nd edition? Check out USENET from this period. Back then, the only way to really find out if a rule was broken would be to give it a skeptical once-over, pray to Xagyg, and then run it in a live game. If something went terribly wrong, well, gee, I guess that was broken.

It's not as if by obscuring the math you avoid those balance arguments. If anything, you made it worse because no two people ever have a common framework to discuss mechanics. A typical rule discussion from 1st edition went something like this:

A: The Bear Barbarian's Mighty Hug ability is broken! It wrecked my campaign!

B: I think the Mighty Hug is fine. I never had any problems with it in my campaign!

C: The Mighty Hug ability sucks! My Bear Barbarian character is way weaker than this drow ranger!

Rinse, Lather, Repeat.

In 3e, at least we all have this common framework to argue within. It allows you, me, or anyone else to quickly and accurately examine new mechanics.

Whisperfoot said:
In 3rd edition there is a greater emphasis on adhering to defined mathematical formulas. I think its good that these formulas exist because they make it easier to design a monster so that you can accurately predict the level of challenge it will be against a party, but by allowing your fans to deconstruct the stats, you open the door to the math check review where the reviewer isn't required to actually put the monster up against a party to see how it performs, but instead, the reviewer can just go through all of the entries to see if they were done correctly.

I agree that rigorous playtests are vital to the design process, and will often point out things that a simple math check will not. Sometimes monster Challenge Ratings, for instance, will look much too high or much too low on paper, but are fine in actual play.

But if a publisher can't get the basic math right, why should I have any confidence that they ran a rigorous playtest to start with? Sloppy final editing suggests a sloppy design process throughout. Hiding the math here doesn't really help anyone -- neither the designers nor the users. If anything, it makes things worse by erasing that common framework.
 
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