JollyDoc's Savage Tide-Updated 10/8!

[Need_A_Life]

I'm digging the turn to evil. It's so obvious that the module author intended for you to save the Jade Ravens and attempt a joint rescue; it's fun to just blow up the railroad.

Well, I would have probably jumped to the conclusion that they were corrupt too... only I'd try to get them to go 'front rank' rather than slaying them outright. The survivors would be accused of being in league with the pirates and left with the choice of being turned over to the Watch (along with my testimony) or go down fighting (proving their guilt).

 

[Schmoe]

Since the issue has been raised, I'll chime in and say that the evil side of the party has me a bit squeamish. I generally root for the good guys, and in this group there's no one to really root for. I still find the story hour very interesting, but I have to admit that I'm kind of rooting for the Legion to get their come-uppance. In fact, it would be pretty cool if the Legion got assimilated and all "savagified" and Demogorgon had his way.

 

[Ika_Greybeard]

Can we not save the world for our on personal gain? Or do we have to do it because it is the "right" thing to do? I do not see what is wrong here so a few extra people die and we do not have to worry with all the trouble of them being in our way.

We can be Heroes and be evil. Look at some of the heroes from movies that are darker but still save the day.Just because a paladin Detects evil does not mean he just attacks the person has to be doing something evil to get attacked. In other words Innocent until proven Guilty unless you get in the way of the Legion.

 

[Schmoe]

Can we not save the world for our on personal gain?

Sure, but that doesn't mean I have to root for you. Who do I want ruling the world, Hannibal Lector, or Darth Vader? Hmm, turns out I don't really want either one winning the battle.

We can be Heroes and be evil.

On this we disagree. An evil person is just trying to get ahead. If that means he needs to save the world in order to have it for himself, so be it. That doesn't make him a hero. If Demogorgon had to first destroy Kyuss before having the Forgotten Realms to himself, and of course some innocents would probably die while Kyuss was being hunted down, would you call Demogorgon a Hero? I wouldn't.

Look at some of the heroes from movies that are darker but still save the day.

Again, depending on how "dark" the character is, I probably wouldn't call that person a hero.

There's also a big difference between characters who have a dark history, and those who still embrace villainy. It is much more common for a movie or story to feature the former rather than the latter. The reason being, an audience can root for a character who can redeem his past, willingly or not, but they are unlikely to root for a character who refuses to be redeemed.

Just because a paladin Detects evil does not mean he just attacks the person has to be doing something evil to get attacked. In other words Innocent until proven Guilty unless you get in the way of the Legion.

And here we agree. There's that whole "laws of society" thing at work, which is important.

The bottom line is this:

I'm sure that you guys are having a blast playing this game. JollyDoc runs a tight game from what I can tell, and I imagine it's very interesting role-playing characters with a different perspective than yourself. The story hour is also still fun to read, because of the amazing events that transpire. But the PCs in the campaign, right now, are thoroughly evil and wicked. The story does not have any heroes, and hence I don't find it as enjoyable or engaging.

No matter how you may try, you cannot convince me that Anwar, Thrisp, and Basil are heroes - they are simply villains with a different agenda.


[Edit] I just re-read what I posted, and I want to make sure that you don't think I'm criticizing your game. I only wanted to explain my perspective. Game on!

 

[Ed Gentry]

JD and crew:

Keep up the good work. These are incredible characters. I would truly love to play in a game like this. It feels very real and I credit that to excellent RP'ing. Specifically, to the players of Anwar and Thrisp I would like to say respectively:

"Amazing! Anwar is a writer's dream for an engaging, suave, creepy but still likable character"
"Well done! Watching Thrisp's internal conflicts is what good character development is all about."

So, please guys, don't give in to nay-sayers. Play the game you want to play. Good and evil are concepts. Concepts are gray by definition, not black and white. There is fluidity, flexibility and motion. You guys are playing the kind of antagonists that writers hope to come up with. You're not bad people, you're not harming anyone. You're doing a great job of portraying these characters. Well done. I can't wait to read more.

 

[Need_A_Life]

Having played in my part of evil/morally unconcerned groups, I wholeheartedly support this as a welcome change from reading the Shackled City Adventure Path you guys went through... though I'll soon be done with that [reached post #752].

I must say that I really like Anwar... though I must say he's actually forgetting to exploit people as much as he could've. He could've easily become Lord Anwar Vanderboren, instead of merely being the plaything of some self-important noblewoman.

Also, I find him to revert to "kill it" far too quickly. I fail to see the reasoning between killing off willing arrow-fodder, not to mention all the people he could've simply told to count their blessings that he didn't just report them to the Watch but instead came with an offer they just can't refuse.

 

[gfunk]

He could've easily become Lord Anwar Vanderboren, instead of merely being the plaything of some self-important noblewoman.

Well . . . ummmm . . . about that . . .

You'll just have to wait until the next update!

Let me just say (and I agree w/ Schmoe), I believe that Anwar is irrevocably evil. Even worse than individuals like heads of demonic cults who believe in "evil" as a tangible concept, Anwar is totally apathetic. Sure he is greedy, but he is far worse than that. As Need_A_Life rightly pointed out, if Anwar was simply for profit above all else he would not kill/ruin people as indiscriminately as he does. Generally, he reserves his blackmail for people from whom he can truly gain something such as material wealth.

However, as others have stated, Anwar is in a class of despicable all by himself. On the morality scale, I believe the Legion goes something like this (in decreasing magnitudes of Evil):

Anwar >> Basil > Thrisp > Sepoto = Marius >> Samson

Anwar actively pursues evil agendas and is pure scum.
Basil has just recently turned evil but I think this is largely due to apathy for the plights of others.
Thrisp will cut moral corners on occasion but he has stood up to some of Anwar's more outrageous demands.
Both Sepoto and Marius are honrable in their own way. Sepoto is a kind of a "me, me, me!" guy whereas Marius feels that the greater good sometimes outweighs people's personal rights.
Samson is as close to good as the Legion will get. Though neutral he has washed his hands of many of the Legion's questionable activities.

Therefore, I believe that readers should judge each character on his own moral judgements. Though Anwar often "gets his way," due to inaction on the parts of others, I think this next update will show you that even Thrisp, Sepoto, Marius, Basil and Samson have their limits.

 

[Neverwinter Knight]

Ahem, gfunk, I'm afraid we're going to need proof. Like, for instance, an update. Isn't it weekend again, soon?

 

[JollyDoc]

Say what you will, our previous two story hours have NEVER generated this much controversy

Bear in mind, the story of the Legion is only beginning. Heck, we've only just finished the second installment of the AP! I'm as anxious as you guys to see how this will all play out over time. Who know who will ultimately be the villain or the hero? I agree with Gfunk's assessment of the party's current moral bent. Samson is turning out to be the voice of reason, as you will see in the next installment. I can't add anything to G's painting of Anwar's character. In time, this fellow might give Entropy a run for her money in the evilgasm category. I see Basil as a downtrodden soul who has discovered power and is using it to get back at those who he perceives have oppressed him in the past. Thrisp is battling for his soul, but unlike Havok, he's losing the battle. Sepoto walks a fine line. He can't become truly evil and still follow the path of the crusader that he has chosen, but he is rapidly becoming the kind of 'law' that equals judge, jury and executioner. Marius lives up to his role of Seeker in every way, in that the ends justify the means. Again, who knows how the adventures that await our 'heroes' will transform them in the months to come?

As always...stay tuned! Oh, and thanks again to all our readers, pro and con! I appreciate everyone's input and critique. That's what makes this whole process worthwhile.

 

[Supar]

JD hit basil on the head. He wants everything he lost, takin and was witheld from him. That includes family and friends which he puts the legion and lavinia. Basil will not kill someone if information is needed to protect his objectives or further but i dont think basil would be above killing a enemy wizard if he knew the wiz had good magic items on him. Just think if he had spent time with Hawk and the league rather then Anwar and the legion.

And as far as no one to root for. Didnt you read War of the spider queen? I found myself rooting for the wizard pharuan. A mage of Limitless talent that has to live with a station that doesnt reflect his skill. He was evil as well as everyone else in the book.