Jonathan Tweet denounces Power Attack

[frankthedm]

WotC must learn to stop giving things open ended bonuses. Until they do, they will find something to "revise" in every edition they every produce, because balance will change in every splat book they release, eventually ending in some open ended bonus being labeled "broken".

The open eneded bonuses are a problem at times, but more often it is the multiplication of those bonuses that cause the breaking.

Extended crits
Charging with lance and or spirited charge
Leap Attack
FB Greater and Supreme power attack.

All increased the problem of the open ended damage bonus of power atatck.

 

[Plane Sailing]

An interesting option for power attack might be to say the feat simply gives a +1d4 bonus to damage, with no penalty on attack. The cost is then in taking the feat (rather than any other feat) and just not worry about a penalty to hit.

 

[ShadowX]

It seems rather obvious to me that power attack's original purpose lay in patching up the attack bonus scaling problems in the core game. The disparity in attack bonuses between classes put the designers in a sticky situation regarding the AC of monsters because if it challenged fighters then other classes had no chance of hitting it, yet you catered to classes with less attack bonus and the fighters were guaranteed a hit. Power Attack allowed the designers to reduce monster AC since fighters could convert excess attack bonus to damage. This also, conveniently, helped to scale fighter damage as the game progressed.

Unfortunately, splat books brought too many ways to multiply damage and Power Attack quickly escalated in effectiveness. Nearly every high damage melee build requires Power Attack. So whether it is to clean up balance or reduce calculations, Power Attack needs a fix.

 

[frankthedm]

An interesting option for power attack might be to say the feat simply gives a +1d4 bonus to damage, with no penalty on attack. The cost is then in taking the feat (rather than any other feat) and just not worry about a penalty to hit.

That is a smidge better than weapon specialization, which is supposed to be a decent and class exclusive feat. And you see, by nixing power attack, other damage based feats no longer have to be 'competitive' with power attack. And thus, this is one way damage escalation will be kept in check in 4E.

 

[SteveC]

I remember asking a question about why power attack was mentioned as the be-all-end-all of melee combat a while ago, and the answer that I got was that it really wasn't, it was fantastic with add-ons.

Power attack is really a great way to cause yourself to miss if you don't think about how to use it. However, taking it in conjunction with True Strike, Wraith Strike, Shock Trooper and then using a two handed weapon with Favored Enemy Power Attack, well, there you've got something.

From playing Neverwinter Nights 2, a flat -5/+5 or -10/+10 with a feat works for me.

--Steve

 

[WayneLigon]

WotC must learn to stop giving things open ended bonuses. Until they do, they will find something to "revise" in every edition they ever produce, because balance will change in every splat book they release, eventually ending in some open ended bonus being labeled "broken".

Eh, it's another 'damned if you do/don't' scenario for them. They cap it, and then they get an equal amount of people complaining about 'Well, why is it capped at x?'. Wizard had a really simple means of capping magic item usage, for instance: you could never have more than five active items on your person at once, period. WoTC could do something similar for D&D but likely it would feel artificial and then people would trot out things like 'Giants are massive, why is their Power Attack mod the same as the one for a halfling?'

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I like PA as it is written now. Sure you can boost your damage really high, but you still have to hit to see any gain in having a high damage potential. It does scale, that's a great thing and you can choose how "wild" you swing (I can make a descision other than I attack). And it is not PA's fault that combat expertise is capped at -5/+5, but it's own -- CE should be open ended as PA is.

All people here that suggest extra feats for PA, I don't know what you are doing but how many feats does a fighter (any other class) have. Does she get extra feats for every PA feat you present here?

The idea PA schould reduce AC not to hit, would make my DM cry (those tears wouldn't be tears of joy...).

PA is one of the most used feats in our grps, it is powerful but then again improved initiative is used by nearly every 3rd character as well...


But I won't cry and spill hate for 4E because of this statement. For I do not know what feats/talents/powers/etc. there might be.

 

[frankthedm]

From playing Neverwinter Nights 2, a flat -5/+5 or -10/+10 with a feat works for me.

The problem with that is it still allows the player to choose a bonus that was supposed to be to hit, to instead go to damage. A bonus to hit currently HAS to be treated as "more valuable" because it can be fluxed to damage. By killing that option, bonuses to hit can be granted more often since that bonus is only gong to be to hit. Thus characters who need that bonus to hit can be given a 'leg up' by the ruleset, since “hitting is fun”, without risking a more optimized build to turn said ‘leg up’ into damage potential.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

We houseruled it to allow a bonus to strike equal to his Fighter level whenever a character drops to 1/3 his HP or lower (and renamed it Desperate Attack).

Sounds like if the 4th edition uses Bloodied as a condition, that it will convert easily to simply allow Power Attack as a Fighter maneuver/talent/whatever they call it whenever the player is Bloodied.

 

[Remathilis]

The problem with that is it still allows the player to choose a bonus that was supposed to be to hit, to instead go to damage. A bonus to hit currently HAS to be treated as "more valuable" because it can be fluxed to damage. By killing that option, bonuses to hit can be granted more often since that bonus is only gong to be to hit. Thus characters who need that bonus to hit can be given a 'leg up' by the ruleset, since “hitting is fun”, without risking a more optimized build to turn said ‘leg up’ into damage potential.

True.

The Remathilis way of using Power Attack.

Me: Ok, what bonuses are floating around right now?
Cleric: I have bless up, +1 to hit
Bard: Bardsong for +2
Wizard: I hasted everyone, that a +1 to hit.
Me: Great. [To DM] I'm Power Attacking for four...