Jonathan Tweet denounces Power Attack

[SteveC]

The problem with that is it still allows the player to choose a bonus that was supposed to be to hit, to instead go to damage. A bonus to hit currently HAS to be treated as "more valuable" because it can be fluxed to damage. By killing that option, bonuses to hit can be granted more often since that bonus is only gong to be to hit. Thus characters who need that bonus to hit can be given a 'leg up' by the ruleset, since “hitting is fun”, without risking a more optimized build to turn said ‘leg up’ into damage potential.

Sure...I see where you're coming from. I think the real problem is that once you hit, it doesn't matter by how much...unless it's that natural 20 and a crit. In a game that I'm currently working on I give a bonus to damage based on hitting by 10 or more...I use Power Attack to be -5 to hit, but automatically give the bonus to damage. It works fairly well. I like the idea of taking power attack to permanently change how you attack, actually. I think that would be very much in tune with the intent of the feat, as opposed to how it's actually applied.

--Steve

 

[Lord Zardoz]

If I were going to modify power attack, I would be tempted to set it up as a toggle that for every X points of penalty you took, you added one extra damage die to your attack. I would want to keep the feat open ended, so some mechanism that prevented you from dumping beyond what your Bab would allow would null out, such as "If your bab - the power attack cost is negative, you cannot further power up a power attack".

Example, assuming Power attack cost 4 points per die and a fighter with Bab 7:
Normal attack Longsword: +7 to hit, 1d8+4 damage (bonus damage from wpn spec, str, etc)
Power attack at -4: +3 to hit, 2d8+8 damage
Power attack at -8: -1 to hit, 3d8+12
Power attack at -12: Not possible

This allows the feat to still be open ended, but it simplifies the calculations that lead to min maxing by allowing few combinations.

Alternately, I could see allowing a pure 'toggle' or on / off power attack that made a successful hit count give the same extra dice as a critical hit, and still allow an actual critical hit on top of it, using the existing rules that would apply for things like a critical hit on a lance charge (for time X damage, add X-1 damage dice).

Normal attack for longsword(x2 crit): 1d8+4
Power attack for longsword: 2d8+8
POwer attack + critical for longsword: 3d8+12

Normal attack for great axe (x3 crit): 1d12+4
Power attack for longsword: 3d12+8
Power attack + critical for longsword: 5d12+12

This makes the Power attack a simple toggle effect while preserving the synergy for high crit damage with power attack.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Umm, not to belittle your feelings, but that sounds like a bug to me. Power attacking with a rapier just seems wrong... :\

And not to belittle your feelings, but that attitude in the designers and the 3.5 changes to PA were the real bug as far as I was concerned. The name of the feat is "power attack" so that flavor has to suffuse the game experince and balance be damned?

Reducing your chance to hit to get better damage if you do can be represented just as well by a carefully aimed thrust into an armor chink (that they may dodge more easily because you are telegraphing the move as you aim) as by a wild swing. Changing the mechanics to follow ill concieved flavor was a horrible move for no benefit to anyone. The idea that PA was "broken" with smaller weapons because it actually helped catch them up to the damage output of large ones basicly said "there is only one way we want you to deal damage if you aren't a rogue and thats with a big honking weapon. If you want to play a swashbuckler without being a rogue, too bad! Your damage output will suck and we like it that way!"

'Options not restrictions' my left Complete book....

 

[Driddle]

oh yeah, it takes ages to subtract form one number and add to another number. :\

Careful there. You'll be yelled at as an anti-anti-mathist, someone who picks on people who can't add and subtract. It happens every few months.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

An interesting option for power attack might be to say the feat simply gives a +1d4 bonus to damage, with no penalty on attack. The cost is then in taking the feat (rather than any other feat) and just not worry about a penalty to hit.

I was thinking along these lines as well, altho a lean towards the idea of being a favored feat for the greatsword weilding barbarian... reimagining the 'take a huge swing' as, well, a huge swing!

alt.Power Attack
As a Full Attack, make a melee attack at your normal BAB plus a bonus that is based on the number of attacks you normally would have. You gain +2 to hit for each attack normally available.
You also gain bonus damage dice based on your Strength Modifier as shown in the table below for each of your normal attacks. These additional dice are not multiplied on a Critical Hit.
You suffer a -4 penalty to AC until the start of your next round due to the recklessness of the attack.

           1                  1d3
           2                  1d4
           3                  1d6
           4                  1d8
           5                  2d6
           6                  2d8
           7                  3d6
           8                  3d8
          etc...

Examples:[sblock]
First level fighter with Str of 18 could Power Attack once per round, gaining +2 to hit, +1D8 damage, and suffer -4 to AC

A 20th level Fighter, could Power Attack once per round and a Str of 22 would gain +10 to hit and +10D8 to damage.

A stock Hill Giant with a Str of 25 could Power Attack once per round.. going from:
Greatclub +16/+11 melee (2d8+10)
to:
Greatclub +20 melee (2d8+6D6+10)

er... ouch!
But actually thats the averages out to be about the same additional damage {+9 PA = 18 pts additional damage} , altho the attack is more likely to hit... and he is slower {full attack} and easier to hit {-4 to AC}

[/sblock]

This auto scales and negates any math questions. Further feats might look like:

Improved alt.Power Attack
Prereq: 3 Iterative attacks
As a Full Attack, you may make two Power Attacks.

Rapid alt.Power Attack
Prereq: Str 24
You may Power Attack as a Standard Action, gaining the normal benefits and penalties.

Anyway, thats probably far enough off topic for today!

 

[Nifft]

IMHO, Power Attack with a Rapier = Lunge.

- - -

Anyway, I basically agree with Tweet. I dislike the fiddly bits of Power Attack, from players who forget to use it to monsters who shouldn't have any way of knowing precisely how much to use it. It rewards meta-game knowledge too much.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Careful there. You'll be yelled at as an anti-anti-mathist, someone who picks on people who can't add and subtract. It happens every few months.

Some people have trouble subtracting shifting numbers on a repated time-pressure basis. Many of these people are more intelligent than the majority of anti-mathists. It's why THAC0 went away.

 

[Spatula]

It seems rather obvious to me that power attack's original purpose lay in patching up the attack bonus scaling problems in the core game. The disparity in attack bonuses between classes put the designers in a sticky situation regarding the AC of monsters because if it challenged fighters then other classes had no chance of hitting it, yet you catered to classes with less attack bonus and the fighters were guaranteed a hit. Power Attack allowed the designers to reduce monster AC since fighters could convert excess attack bonus to damage. This also, conveniently, helped to scale fighter damage as the game progressed.

Yes, exactly. While PA does contribute to battle-slow-down-syndrome (which is bad), it also gives you something to do with your otherwise-worthless excessive hit bonuses (which is good). If PA does go away, they're going to have to find something else for warrior-types to use their attack bonuses on.

oh yeah, it takes ages to subtract form one number and add to another number.

The adding & subtracting isn't hard. The problem is that as you go up in levels (or even just move around a battlefield), you start racking up all sorts of different bonuses, and applying them all (or even remembering to apply them all) slows the game down.

 

[howandwhy99]

I'm happy that this is recognized as an obstruction to play. I had thought this was exactly the type of thing that was being expanded to every single level for every single character. I don't play D&D to do bistro math.

 

[Klaus]

All Power Attack, All the Time.

Problem solved.

QFMFT.