D&D 3E/3.5 Jonathan Tweet: Third Edition and Per-Day Spells

On the Third Edition design team, we were tasked with rationalizing the game system, but there were some big elements of the system that we didn’t question. We inherited a system in which spellcasters get better in three ways at a time as they level up; they get more spells per day, higher-level spells, and more damage with spells of a given level. In retrospect, that problem is easy to see...

On the Third Edition design team, we were tasked with rationalizing the game system, but there were some big elements of the system that we didn’t question. We inherited a system in which spellcasters get better in three ways at a time as they level up; they get more spells per day, higher-level spells, and more damage with spells of a given level. In retrospect, that problem is easy to see, and we didn’t fix it. We also inherited a system that balanced powerful class features, notably spells, by making them usable once per day. The problems with that system are less obvious, and we didn’t fix this system, either. But the 3E system laid bare its own inner workings, and so soon enough designers saw that there were issues with this system, and over the years several of us designers have tried to address it one way or another.

IMG_7349.JPG


In classic dungeon crawling, the default best strategy is to take each room one at a time and regain your hit points and spells after each one. That’s no fun, so people usually don’t play that way. For 3E, we spelled out that the game was balanced for four average battles between heal-ups, but actual practice varied. Whatever per-day powers are balanced at one rate of fights per day are necessarily unbalanced at faster or slower rates. Classes with lots of per-day power are too strong when there are one or two fights per day and too weak when there are five or more. Individual Dungeon Masters might be able to schedule the action in such a way that they maintain the sort of balance they’re looking for. If that works, it represents the DM’s efforts and not anything we on the design team could accomplish through system design. Many Dungeon Masters might find the per-day rules convenient precisely because they allow the DM to modulate the threat level up and down. DMs rule on how many encounters the party has in a day and whether they can suspend their mission long enough to reset their spells and other per-day powers. A dynamic I’ve seen over and over again, however, is that players with spellcasting characters are adept at talking the DM into letting the party rest. When the spellcaster is out of spells, they need a night’s rest a lot more than the other characters in the party need to press on. When a mission goes south and the encounters burn up more per-day resources than the DM figured they would, the party often simply camps out for the night and sets out the next day with spells reset to full.

Limiting spells by day also means that a spellcaster’s power level is different when they’re in a preliminary skirmish compared to when they’re in a climactic showdown. When it’s a high-priority battle or when the player knows that there’s a long rest afterwards, the spellcaster can use their best spells without worrying about holding back. This effect is something of a game-wrecker when the party arranges to jump the big bad guy after prepping up to full. With a well-placed teleport, the party’s spellcasters can unload all their best “per-day” spells for the one battle that matters that day (an “alpha strike”). Classes with at-will powers can’t “unload” the way spellcasters can.

IMG_5348.JPG


The per-day system also changes up balance for NPCs. Generally, when a party attacks an NPC boss of some sort, that NPC is in a fight for their life, and they cut loose with every per-day power they can manage. Fighter NPCs aren’t particularly dangerous because they have no such resources to unleash. In my campaign, I found the psionicist NPC the most dangerous because they could use the point system to cast at full capacity every round. As player-characters, psionicists have all the balance problems of the wizard and then some.

Seeing the issues with per-day powers, the designers started experimenting with per-encounter powers in supplemental material. The psychic warrior, for example, had a “focus” that they could expend once in the battle in order to have a special effect. At that point, designers were still in simulation mode, and encounters that were “per-encounter” by fiat seemed too artificial. The psychic warrior had a believable, in-world reason for their “per-encounter” abilities. Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords (2006) introduced special, limited-use powers for martial classes. By 4E, the designers fully embraced per-encounter powers.

Fourth edition established balance among the classes by giving all of them per-day and per-encounter powers. That’s one way to solve the balance issue. 4E is so well-balanced that it’s hard to make bad choices in character design. This approach had the unfortunate effect of making the classes all feel sort of the same.

With 13th Age, Rob Heinsoo and I took a different approach. We turned 3E’s four-fights guideline into a hard rule. You get your spells and hit points back not just by resting but only if you have engaged in a minimum amount of fighting. After your fourth fight (or after four fights’ worth of fighting), the party gets to reset to full. Alternatively, the party can admit defeat and get a heal-up without “earning” it, but admitting defeat entails a “campaign loss,” as determined by the GM. This system creates a lovely rhythm, with characters feeling flush and confident in the first fight, feeling hard pressed in the last fight, and then feeling good again when they heal up. I play a cleric in a 13th Age campaign, and the last fight before a heal-up is tough going. The last fight is so tough that we player all know that the decisions and rolls we made in the earlier fights all mattered in terms of what we have left for the last one.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

Dausuul

Legend
In the real word archeologists take months or years to explore ancient ruins.
Those ancient ruins are not full of monsters.

Realistically, D&D explorers will do the same.
It's fascinating how games teach us to think of things as "realistic" that make no sense whatsoever.

Realistically, monsters with any degree of intelligence ought to react to PCs conducting a series of raids over several days or weeks. Either a) they get together to lay a trap for the intruders, b) they organize a counterattack on the PCs' home base, or c) they haul up stakes and head elsewhere. They don't just sit there waiting to be massacred.

However, this requires a willingness to call the party's bluff and completely derail the adventure. In scenario a), the PCs will find themselves facing far more firepower than they can handle, potentially ending in TPK and certainly making it very hard for them to achieve their goals in the dungeon. Scenario b) is probably the most effective method, but it only works if the monsters can locate the PCs and pursue them off their (the monsters') home turf. Scenario c) means that all the work the DM put into designing the dungeon has now gone for naught.

It can be done, but it's a lot of extra work for the DM and can end very badly if mishandled. It also requires thinking about adventure design in a very different way from what video games and even the DMG encourage; you have to consider the entire dungeon as a whole, rather than designing each encounter as a stand-alone set piece.
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
It also requires thinking about adventure design in a very different way from what video games and even the DMG encourage; you have to consider the entire dungeon as a whole, rather than designing each encounter as a stand-alone set piece.

I once had a conversation with someone about (an aspect of) this. I mentioned how the monsters and NPCs wouldn't just be sitting around passively waiting while their base/home/lair was under attack. They'd start taking proactive measures to fortify defenses and make things as difficult as possible for the intruders, including various "break glass in case of emergency" measures, ranging from drinking potions to cutting quick deals with summoned Outsiders and evil gods.

The other guy replied that in that case, the PCs should just run in, smash things in a room or two, and then leave for a day or so; by that point the bad guys' short-term measures (i.e. potions) would have worn off, and they'd be more vulnerable to a sudden strike than before. I promptly named this the "booga-booga" tactic, since it relies on scaring the enemies into using up their most limited resources.
 

slobster

Hero
Realistically, monsters with any degree of intelligence ought to react to PCs conducting a series of raids over several days or weeks. Either a) they get together to lay a trap for the intruders, b) they organize a counterattack on the PCs' home base, or c) they haul up stakes and head elsewhere. They don't just sit there waiting to be massacred.
FWIW, this is exactly how monsters in my dungeons react. However, if the drow outpost pulls up stakes and moves out after a couple days of assault by the PCs, after they did their best to ambush and fortify, their camp won't stay uninhabited forever. Mindless monsters will move in and pick over the scraps, other power groups might try to possess the area for the same reasons the drow were there orginally, or for their own purposes. And of course the best loot will probably be taken with the drow.

Now if the PCs were after something the Drow had specifically, now they have to track them through the underdark to achieve their objectives. So maybe pushing on instead of nova-ing then resting over and over would have been the less risky choice in this situation, after all! ;)
 

slobster

Hero
I once had a conversation with someone about (an aspect of) this. I mentioned how the monsters and NPCs wouldn't just be sitting around passively waiting while their base/home/lair was under attack. They'd start taking proactive measures to fortify defenses and make things as difficult as possible for the intruders, including various "break glass in case of emergency" measures, ranging from drinking potions to cutting quick deals with summoned Outsiders and evil gods.

The other guy replied that in that case, the PCs should just run in, smash things in a room or two, and then leave for a day or so; by that point the bad guys' short-term measures (i.e. potions) would have worn off, and they'd be more vulnerable to a sudden strike than before. I promptly named this the "booga-booga" tactic, since it relies on scaring the enemies into using up their most limited resources.
(Sorry for the double post, I'm still getting used to the forum code again)

Another possible reaction for the monsters in this case is one of my favorites, even though I've only ever done it once.

Think about it. A village is attacked every night by a troupe of powerful monsters. They come in, methodically going house by house and killing everything within it, taking anything of value, and then leave to parts unknown, presumably to rest until they return the next night. How would your average D&D village respond? Get adventurers of course!

So if that tribe of bullywugs just can't bring down the PCs after several days of "booga-booga!", maybe they pool all their remaining valuables (and sell some of the tribe into slavery on top) to hire an evil group of monster adventurers- a troll cleric, a mummy sorcerer, a werepig rogue, and a dwarven blackguard. When the PCs bash down the front gate of the bullywug temple expecting another easy fight, they get a great surprise of their own!

Like I said, I only did it once, and it was a fun take on the "evil mirror party" trope. Led to a great fight where both sides did their nova thing and the players triumphed, but bloodily. You know I just might do something like that again...
 


Larnievc

Hero
On the Third Edition design team, we were tasked with rationalizing the game system, but there were some big elements of the system that we didn’t question. We inherited a system in which spellcasters get better in three ways at a time as they level up; they get more spells per day, higher-level spells, and more damage with spells of a given level. In retrospect, that problem is easy to see, and we didn’t fix it. We also inherited a system that balanced powerful class features, notably spells, by making them usable once per day. The problems with that system are less obvious, and we didn’t fix this system, either. But the 3E system laid bare its own inner workings, and so soon enough designers saw that there were issues with this system, and over the years several of us designers have tried to address it one way or another.

View attachment 118696

In classic dungeon crawling, the default best strategy is to take each room one at a time and regain your hit points and spells after each one. That’s no fun, so people usually don’t play that way. For 3E, we spelled out that the game was balanced for four average battles between heal-ups, but actual practice varied. Whatever per-day powers are balanced at one rate of fights per day are necessarily unbalanced at faster or slower rates. Classes with lots of per-day power are too strong when there are one or two fights per day and too weak when there are five or more. Individual Dungeon Masters might be able to schedule the action in such a way that they maintain the sort of balance they’re looking for. If that works, it represents the DM’s efforts and not anything we on the design team could accomplish through system design. Many Dungeon Masters might find the per-day rules convenient precisely because they allow the DM to modulate the threat level up and down. DMs rule on how many encounters the party has in a day and whether they can suspend their mission long enough to reset their spells and other per-day powers. A dynamic I’ve seen over and over again, however, is that players with spellcasting characters are adept at talking the DM into letting the party rest. When the spellcaster is out of spells, they need a night’s rest a lot more than the other characters in the party need to press on. When a mission goes south and the encounters burn up more per-day resources than the DM figured they would, the party often simply camps out for the night and sets out the next day with spells reset to full.

Limiting spells by day also means that a spellcaster’s power level is different when they’re in a preliminary skirmish compared to when they’re in a climactic showdown. When it’s a high-priority battle or when the player knows that there’s a long rest afterwards, the spellcaster can use their best spells without worrying about holding back. This effect is something of a game-wrecker when the party arranges to jump the big bad guy after prepping up to full. With a well-placed teleport, the party’s spellcasters can unload all their best “per-day” spells for the one battle that matters that day (an “alpha strike”). Classes with at-will powers can’t “unload” the way spellcasters can.

View attachment 118697

The per-day system also changes up balance for NPCs. Generally, when a party attacks an NPC boss of some sort, that NPC is in a fight for their life, and they cut loose with every per-day power they can manage. Fighter NPCs aren’t particularly dangerous because they have no such resources to unleash. In my campaign, I found the psionicist NPC the most dangerous because they could use the point system to cast at full capacity every round. As player-characters, psionicists have all the balance problems of the wizard and then some.

Seeing the issues with per-day powers, the designers started experimenting with per-encounter powers in supplemental material. The psychic warrior, for example, had a “focus” that they could expend once in the battle in order to have a special effect. At that point, designers were still in simulation mode, and encounters that were “per-encounter” by fiat seemed too artificial. The psychic warrior had a believable, in-world reason for their “per-encounter” abilities. Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords (2006) introduced special, limited-use powers for martial classes. By 4E, the designers fully embraced per-encounter powers.

Fourth edition established balance among the classes by giving all of them per-day and per-encounter powers. That’s one way to solve the balance issue. 4E is so well-balanced that it’s hard to make bad choices in character design. This approach had the unfortunate effect of making the classes all feel sort of the same.

With 13th Age, Rob Heinsoo and I took a different approach. We turned 3E’s four-fights guideline into a hard rule. You get your spells and hit points back not just by resting but only if you have engaged in a minimum amount of fighting. After your fourth fight (or after four fights’ worth of fighting), the party gets to reset to full. Alternatively, the party can admit defeat and get a heal-up without “earning” it, but admitting defeat entails a “campaign loss,” as determined by the GM. This system creates a lovely rhythm, with characters feeling flush and confident in the first fight, feeling hard pressed in the last fight, and then feeling good again when they heal up. I play a cleric in a 13th Age campaign, and the last fight before a heal-up is tough going. The last fight is so tough that we player all know that the decisions and rolls we made in the earlier fights all mattered in terms of what we have left for the last one.
My group does a similar thing. They gain the benefit of a short rest after two encounters and a long rest after 6 encounters.

Sleep is a separate thing.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I don't the problem is limits and restriction on spells and magic being removed.

Ultimately I think the issue is rules that don't match the world setting they go in. Mostly because the rules are supposed to hit many settings or creating rules sperate from setting.

D&D 1-5e, PF 1-2e, 13A, and the rest create discinct and precise world systems with their rules. The issue is the rules of some game systems weren't made for the settings people wanted to play. To make a world that simulates deep dungeon delving sessions you need to design rules that encourage that.
 


billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
There's another aspect to casters which is somewhat tangential to the specific issues brought up in this article, but which is an important aspect to their overall spike in power in Third Edition: making magic items became formulaic, which in turn made it player-facing.

Although the ability to make magic items was feat-restricted in 3E, rather than being baked into spellcasting classes the way it had been before, and the magic items themselves were in the DMG, everything else lowered the barrier for players making magic items. Whereas before the process had largely depended on unspecified rare materials, it now consisted purely of expenditures of gold and experience points. Now, those were still something of a cost restriction, but not in the way that rare materials had been. Worse, the entire process detracted from game-play rather than added to it.

<snip>

There was no "magic market" either, where you could just buy the magic items you couldn't make for yourself, but that tended to work in everyone's favor, even if spellcasters seemed to benefit more (in my experience) from being able to buy cheap scrolls of whatever spell they needed.

Tangential, but still pretty important. In previous editions, wands were useful in combat (can't disrupt the use of a wand like you can a spell) and for weird utilities. Expanding what could be put into a wand really wrecked the balancing act that the daily spell slots provided. There was little need for clerics to resort to spontaneously casting healing when wands of cure light wounds could be broken out after every combat. It was no longer a tough choice for a wizard to take a couple of utility spells like knock, spider climb, or invisibility to double-up on rogue duties because they could do it 50 times in a day if necessary.

Of all the things 3e did that changed D&D, I still think the most contentious and far-reaching was easing on-demand magic item acquisition - both through magic item creation within the party and the market.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
It can be done, but it's a lot of extra work for the DM and can end very badly if mishandled. It also requires thinking about adventure design in a very different way from what video games and even the DMG encourage; you have to consider the entire dungeon as a whole, rather than designing each encounter as a stand-alone set piece.
Such is the life of the GM. Both 2nd and 3rd editions had books to address this - the Complete Book of Villains and Dungeonscape, respectively.

A dynamic I’ve seen over and over again, however, is that players with spellcasting characters are adept at talking the DM into letting the party rest. When the spellcaster is out of spells, they need a night’s rest a lot more than the other characters in the party need to press on. When a mission goes south and the encounters burn up more per-day resources than the DM figured they would, the party often simply camps out for the night and sets out the next day with spells reset to full.
Negotiating with the DM in this way is super meta, but it also seems like it's part of the charm of the game. It's like an inadvertent, "hey, you heroes actually need to rest once in a while," system. It would be a little weird if the party cut through evil gnomes (sorry, had to cross-thread) for three days straight, no sleep, simply because their spells and hit points hadn't run low.

I seem to recall 3e's resting was harsh on warriors, and extra harsh on clerics, but great for wizards. Because in those days, a full night's sleep didn't restore all hit points (thanks, 5e). So the warriors didn't "reset to full," the clerics had to burn their precious spells first thing in the morning in order to reset the warriors to full, and the wizards had a cup of coffee because they got all of their spells back, and didn't have that many hit points to begin with.

Wizards. So OP 🤓

Reading JT's post, I thought, "isn't the obvious solution Stamina Points for the warriors?" But one solution/implementation of that is the Book of Nine Swords idea, and we just read about where that leads...
 

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