D&D 3E/3.5 Jonathan Tweet: Third Edition and Per-Day Spells

On the Third Edition design team, we were tasked with rationalizing the game system, but there were some big elements of the system that we didn’t question. We inherited a system in which spellcasters get better in three ways at a time as they level up; they get more spells per day, higher-level spells, and more damage with spells of a given level. In retrospect, that problem is easy to see...

On the Third Edition design team, we were tasked with rationalizing the game system, but there were some big elements of the system that we didn’t question. We inherited a system in which spellcasters get better in three ways at a time as they level up; they get more spells per day, higher-level spells, and more damage with spells of a given level. In retrospect, that problem is easy to see, and we didn’t fix it. We also inherited a system that balanced powerful class features, notably spells, by making them usable once per day. The problems with that system are less obvious, and we didn’t fix this system, either. But the 3E system laid bare its own inner workings, and so soon enough designers saw that there were issues with this system, and over the years several of us designers have tried to address it one way or another.

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In classic dungeon crawling, the default best strategy is to take each room one at a time and regain your hit points and spells after each one. That’s no fun, so people usually don’t play that way. For 3E, we spelled out that the game was balanced for four average battles between heal-ups, but actual practice varied. Whatever per-day powers are balanced at one rate of fights per day are necessarily unbalanced at faster or slower rates. Classes with lots of per-day power are too strong when there are one or two fights per day and too weak when there are five or more. Individual Dungeon Masters might be able to schedule the action in such a way that they maintain the sort of balance they’re looking for. If that works, it represents the DM’s efforts and not anything we on the design team could accomplish through system design. Many Dungeon Masters might find the per-day rules convenient precisely because they allow the DM to modulate the threat level up and down. DMs rule on how many encounters the party has in a day and whether they can suspend their mission long enough to reset their spells and other per-day powers. A dynamic I’ve seen over and over again, however, is that players with spellcasting characters are adept at talking the DM into letting the party rest. When the spellcaster is out of spells, they need a night’s rest a lot more than the other characters in the party need to press on. When a mission goes south and the encounters burn up more per-day resources than the DM figured they would, the party often simply camps out for the night and sets out the next day with spells reset to full.

Limiting spells by day also means that a spellcaster’s power level is different when they’re in a preliminary skirmish compared to when they’re in a climactic showdown. When it’s a high-priority battle or when the player knows that there’s a long rest afterwards, the spellcaster can use their best spells without worrying about holding back. This effect is something of a game-wrecker when the party arranges to jump the big bad guy after prepping up to full. With a well-placed teleport, the party’s spellcasters can unload all their best “per-day” spells for the one battle that matters that day (an “alpha strike”). Classes with at-will powers can’t “unload” the way spellcasters can.

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The per-day system also changes up balance for NPCs. Generally, when a party attacks an NPC boss of some sort, that NPC is in a fight for their life, and they cut loose with every per-day power they can manage. Fighter NPCs aren’t particularly dangerous because they have no such resources to unleash. In my campaign, I found the psionicist NPC the most dangerous because they could use the point system to cast at full capacity every round. As player-characters, psionicists have all the balance problems of the wizard and then some.

Seeing the issues with per-day powers, the designers started experimenting with per-encounter powers in supplemental material. The psychic warrior, for example, had a “focus” that they could expend once in the battle in order to have a special effect. At that point, designers were still in simulation mode, and encounters that were “per-encounter” by fiat seemed too artificial. The psychic warrior had a believable, in-world reason for their “per-encounter” abilities. Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords (2006) introduced special, limited-use powers for martial classes. By 4E, the designers fully embraced per-encounter powers.

Fourth edition established balance among the classes by giving all of them per-day and per-encounter powers. That’s one way to solve the balance issue. 4E is so well-balanced that it’s hard to make bad choices in character design. This approach had the unfortunate effect of making the classes all feel sort of the same.

With 13th Age, Rob Heinsoo and I took a different approach. We turned 3E’s four-fights guideline into a hard rule. You get your spells and hit points back not just by resting but only if you have engaged in a minimum amount of fighting. After your fourth fight (or after four fights’ worth of fighting), the party gets to reset to full. Alternatively, the party can admit defeat and get a heal-up without “earning” it, but admitting defeat entails a “campaign loss,” as determined by the GM. This system creates a lovely rhythm, with characters feeling flush and confident in the first fight, feeling hard pressed in the last fight, and then feeling good again when they heal up. I play a cleric in a 13th Age campaign, and the last fight before a heal-up is tough going. The last fight is so tough that we player all know that the decisions and rolls we made in the earlier fights all mattered in terms of what we have left for the last one.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Many groups handwaved the spell recovery rules not because they were trivial, but because they were restrictive to the extreme.

I bet a lot more did because they didn’t really care to bother with the timing. The wizard player had to predesignate their spell slots so they did, boom, main requirement of the rule met. 3e dropping the time requirement probably had a lot more to do with following widely played convention than any careful consideration of the balancing effect of time spent.
 

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Trivial???????
The 10th level wizard had to study for 11.5 hours with an 8 hours on uninterrupted rest. Rest is interrupted by an easy combat encounter (random at that)? Start over again. Your mind isn't clear enough. Mages were not supposed to nova and losing spells was a real thing. The 18th level mage would need 34.75 hours of study covering about 3 days. Chances were that the wizards would not be able to recover his full allotment of spells in adventure if he would go nova. So they had to rely on wands, scrolls and staves for most of their damage.

Many groups handwaved the spell recovery rules not because they were trivial, but because they were restrictive to the extreme. What they failed to see was that it was a balancing factor for the magic users. Handwaiving these only led to magic users being more powerful than they really were, leading to complaints about the vancian spell, leading to the belief that martial classes were underpowered leading to casters are too powerful leading to what we saw in 4ed where every classes were more or less the same but had the same power level.

5ed is a step back in the right direction but it could have gone way further in giving martial classes a way to nova a bit more often and a bit more power to the spell casters. But for the moment, the balance is just about right.
"..until quite high level..."
 
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10th level wizard was not that hard to achieve. Do not forget that gold found was translated one for one as experience points. 250 000 xp was not that hard to get. Most campaigns were going higher than that. The 7th level magic user needed 5 hours with a 6 hours of uninterrupted rest. One combat and poof! Start over again. Even at these levels the magic users could not go nova unless absolutely necessary.

Edit: It was 5 hours and not 7 hours. Still, a long time by today's standards.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
10th level wizard was not that hard to achieve. Do not forget that gold found was translated one for one as experience points. 250 000 xp was not that hard to get. Most campaigns were going higher than that. The 7th level magic user needed 5 hours with a 6 hours of uninterrupted rest. One combat and poof! Start over again. Even at these levels the magic users could not go nova unless absolutely necessary.

Edit: It was 5 hours and not 7 hours. Still, a long time by today's standards.

Even back then high level was apparently rare. Not many adventures made for higher level.
 

Even back then high level was apparently rare. Not many adventures made for higher level.
It Depends. We do not have many reliable statistics on that era. Just like today, many campaigns were dead by level 15 but we still have some adventures that are a testament that some groups were going even higher.

Be it: The Tomb of Horrors, The mines of Bloostone Pass, The Isle of the Ape or Q1-3. It was not that rare. And a lot of people were also using the adventures of Norworld for high level characters. It didn't required a lot of tweaking to adapt these to AD&D. And, of course, there were a lot of home brew adventures. Without that damn fire, I could've share about two dozens of high level adventures that many different groups played over the years with me.
 
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Li Shenron

Legend
I absolutely love reading these "behind the curtains" articles on game design, they are really useful for me to understand why specific rules of the game are designed a certain way.

Seeing the issues with per-day powers, the designers started experimenting with per-encounter powers in supplemental material. The psychic warrior, for example, had a “focus” that they could expend once in the battle in order to have a special effect. At that point, designers were still in simulation mode, and encounters that were “per-encounter” by fiat seemed too artificial. The psychic warrior had a believable, in-world reason for their “per-encounter” abilities. Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords (2006) introduced special, limited-use powers for martial classes. By 4E, the designers fully embraced per-encounter powers.

While daily powers have their issues, I feel they are essential in a RPG, because they are one of the main reasons why a party of PCs needs planning. In fact, the "issue" is also the good feature of the system, because it prevents the game from shifting towards a "shoot em' up".

Granted, a great RPG also offers other options for players who do not like planning, and in fact I am very happy with the variety of 5e, as I was also happy with 3.0e, but now it's even better. I do not like instead 4e and 13th age approaches, pretty much because they feel too gamist/artificial for my personal tastes.

I can see why many dread the risk of "when the party arranges to jump the big bad guy after prepping up to full". IMHO the problem in 3e was simply that "full" actually meant WAY TOO MUCH for a high-level spellcaster! This problem was very much addressed in 5e by (a) significantly reducing the number of highest-level spell slots, (b) not scaling spells effects automatically by caster level, and (c) seriously limiting pre-buffing with the concentration mechanic.

Because of these, I am not at all afraid of that risk in 5e. However, I think it's also the responsibility of a DM (and adventure designer) to not go overboard with encounters before the BBEG final fight. As a DM I should actually want my party of PCs to reach the BBEG at full capabilities, so that I can unleash at them the best BBEG I can think of ;). Ideally, I should strive for designing pre-BBEG encounters (meaning those immediately preceding it i.e. occurring on the same day) in such a way that they can be dealt with only using at-will or encounter-based powers, and only cause a few scratches at the PCs, and make a dent in their daily resources only if they make some tactical mistake or when the dice rolls are on a bad day.
 

This is a good planning for adventures. Encounters before the BBEG should be built to bring the characters around the strength of said BBEG. I always prepare two such encounters (BBEG). One in which the players might still be at full strength and one where they are a wee bit too weak. Some would say it is a cheat to do this, but I try my best not kill the players because of an unexpected turn of event or a streak of bad luck. Since every rolls are made in the open, I will not fudge my results. The only way I can "cheat" in the players' favor is in the numbers of helpers the BBEG will have (if any).
 

Lucas Yew

Explorer
By this article I'm finally confident that at least one of the three big names for 3E is a dependable one on roleplaying game design (still pending on the others, but that's another story).

Geometric Casters, 5 Minute Work Day, alpha-striking available only for spellcasters, Guy At The Gym Fallacy, etc. It seems even Mr. Tweet correctly acknowledges the main flaws of the olden days. That's at least soothing for my scarred heart...

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By the way, if I designed spellcasting for a fantasy RPG, I would have made it the opposite of "fire and recharge later", rather a "charge and fire later" type of caster, as the norm.
Like have a fire blasting spell do base damage and scorch weak materials if cast for a round, or do triple damage and melt bedrocks on a 2 round casting, and finally do 6 times damage + evaporate rare metal armor on a 3rd round casting, kind of thing.

That way, even if some (personally) eldritch Western ideals force weapon users to be grounded to reality, at least they'll have definitive purpose as real meat shields for the casting/charging time, not total bread sinkholes. Plus it scratches my simulationist itches just fine (especially assuming superhuman martials as included).
 

Coroc

Hero
Darn, every time I glanced fastly on the thread topics I read this as per Jonathans Tweet and I thought "what is Jonathans Twitter handle so I should check what he tweeted". Then on second thought: "Why is this thread named so that it sounds like there is some guy named Jonathan Tweet?
Now I had some time reading it and lo and behold the guys name is Jonathan Tweet and has naught to do with twitter lol, stupid me.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
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By the way, if I designed spellcasting for a fantasy RPG, I would have made it the opposite of "fire and recharge later", rather a "charge and fire later" type of caster, as the norm.
Like have a fire blasting spell do base damage and scorch weak materials if cast for a round, or do triple damage and melt bedrocks on a 2 round casting, and finally do 6 times damage + evaporate rare metal armor on a 3rd round casting, kind of thing.

That way, even if some (personally) eldritch Western ideals force weapon users to be grounded to reality, at least they'll have definitive purpose as real meat shields for the casting/charging time, not total bread sinkholes. Plus it scratches my simulationist itches just fine (especially assuming superhuman martials as included).

Again I keep coming back to that the rules for D&D the game wasn't really written for D&D the setting. It kinda is a miniatures game (1e) converted to a dungeon delving game (2e) converted to generic roleplaying game (3e) to a tactical roleplaying game (4e).

I mean what are would happen if you did this to Warhammer Fantasy RPG? You'll get a 5MWD without the novaing because everyone but Questing Knights, Witch Hunters, and Slayers would be afraid to leave the town.
 

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