Judgement calls vs "railroading"

Imaro

Legend
When I speak to things like authenticity, collaboration over design, and Mastery over Achievement I am speaking in terms of having more or less of something rather than having the presence or absence of something. I am not really saying that a particular game completely lacks a feature - simply that it might not have enough for my particular interests.

When I speak to authenticity I mean it in the sense that the experience is less designed, involves more risk, involves more passion and vulnerability, and is more likely to get to that raw creative unfiltered part of ourselves and is reflective of what we all bring to the table. I also think a game can be too authentic, feel too real, involve too much collaboration for my interests. I want something less curated, more organic, and less designed than most mainstream games, but that does not mean I want to dive off the deep end where there is absolutely no curation. The indie games I like to play tend to be closer to the mainstream end of things than the really avant garde stuff where the game can be lost to the experience. I think it's possible for media to be too real for our interests. Jessica Jones sometimes crossed that line for me.

There is this continuum where I regard Monsterhearts as usually more authentic than Apocalypse World which in turn is usually more authentic than Dungeon World in the sense I am talking about. I am also speaking in terms of what usually happens. It is possible to have raw, passionate play in Dungeons and Dragons. I view it as demonstrably more difficult to do so consistently.

Im still not getting this... IMO...most indie games are curated to produce a specific experience. As an example the "moves" and appropriate responses in the Apocalypse World games are curated... nothing about them strikes me as particularly authentic or organic. They are artificial constructs used to classify and limit the actions of the participants in order to produce a game about X...
 

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Nagol

Unimportant
Im still not getting this... IMO...most indie games are curated to produce a specific experience. As an example the "moves" and appropriate responses in the Apocalypse World games are curated... nothing about them strikes me as particularly authentic or organic. They are artificial constructs used to classify and limit the actions of the participants in order to produce a game about X...

The aim is more to abstract than limit; the moves are designed to provide general support for typical genre-specific choices. The moves provide a skeleton to hang what the character is attempting in the fiction onto for resolution purposes It is possible to create new moves if none of the provided fits the situation well. I'll note that although it is certainly possible to create moves off-the-cuff as you need to, I find putting some sober thought into them in advance very helpful.
 

Imaro

Legend
The aim is more to abstract than limit; the moves are designed to provide general support for typical genre-specific choices. The moves provide a skeleton to hang what the character is attempting in the fiction onto for resolution purposes It is possible to create new moves if none of the provided fits the situation well. I'll note that although it is certainly possible to create moves off-the-cuff as you need to, I find putting some sober thought into them in advance very helpful.

But in what way is that any more organic or authentic than say D&D? The game is very much structured to produce a game focused on X... as I understand it that's pretty much the definition thats being used in this thread for in-authentic.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
But in what way is that any more organic or authentic than say D&D? The game is very much structured to produce a game focused on X... as I understand it that's pretty much the definition thats being used in this thread for in-authentic.

I didn't say it was. I was just commenting on the limit perception. In my experience, it's neither more nor less authentic. Frankly, they're both games.

One produces situations that force the characters to interact with and deal with continual pressure that the players sign up for and provides a genre-appropriate toolset the players can call on for resolution. Whereas games like D&D force the character to deal with situations whether or not the character is prepared for them, but generally allows the character to control the rhythm of engagement and lateral engagement is often necessary or at least valuable.

Both can be fun. Either can be appropriate -- it depends on what the GM wants the play experience to be.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
There's nothing wrong with that! It sounds like you have a fairly strong bead on your players' interests and your game meets those desires and motivations. It's just not the sort of thing that would be ideal for me. I can enjoy this sort of game as a player. I just have to put a measure of some of my own desires to the side for the good of the game. I think most of us can enjoy things that don't really match our tastes without trying to make it into something it is not. I just think it is important to acknowledge our own constraints even when we like them.

Oh I agree. My last post was mostly a joke...probably should have thrown some kind of smiley or something in there.


The games I like most are not particularly well suited for players who deeply enjoy most mainstream games. If serial world exploration over character exploration. Story Advocacy, expressing your individual creativity rather than social creativity, completing the adventure, spotlight balance, having access to release valves, or not having to engage the mechanisms or fiction too deeply are the types of things you value about mainstream games the reduced emphasis on these things means you will probably enjoy indie games less. You might still enjoy them, just not as much. I know I still enjoy some more mainstream games, just not as much as I enjoy most indie games and some OSR games.

The other thing to remember is that we are mostly talking in broad strokes here. Individual games within a broad category can differ substantially. Character design is a big component of Burning Wheel. Blades in the Dark has a defined setting, even if broadly defined. It is also strongly focused on group play. Exalted 3e is deeply interested in character exploration and has targeted experience rewards. Demon - The Descent embraces conflicts between player characters and has a strong focus on risk taking.

When it comes to game design, particularly when considering deeply social games, I find this notion that everyone can get exactly what they want exactly how they want it to be somewhat dangerous unless we are designing for an extremely narrow band of tastes. I do not think it matters who exactly does the designing here or when the design happens. There is no such thing as a perfect game that will fully satisfy all of our desires all of the time, nor do I think we should search one out. For me personally, a significant part of the fun comes from the imperfection and finding new experiences to engage with as they are, putting my own stamp on things, having other players do likewise, and seeing what happens.

I think the question of who we want to be designing our games and which parts they should be designing is an important one. I think I will add it to the list of things I want to address in a more meaningful way when I have the time to do so.

I agree about the broad strokes. I think most games have multiple facets to them and so do the players. What a game provides can shift, and ao can tastes.

I try to vary things up a bit within my 5E campaign. The past few sessions of our game have been very roleplay heavy, with the PCs chasing down various leads that had come up. There was a good amount of conflict during these sessions, but combat was almost always avoided. So for next session, if things go the way they seem they will, I'm expecting it to be a more action packed session.

Things may not wind up going that way...but it seems pretty likely. Which will be a welcome change of pace.
 

Honestly I almost wish that was the answer. I am looking for the part of the game where the GM gets to unleash his unbridled creativity and it just seems lacking in this department compared to more traditional roleplaying games. One of my main purposes in stepping up to run game is that as DM/GM I get to express my creativity on a broader palette than that of a player but in these games it seems my palette is just as limited (and maybe even moreso) than that of the players. For one of my primary interests in choosing to run a game these indie games strike me as overly restrictive and underwhelming. i don't think I'd have any interest in running them though I'd be interested in giving them a whirl as a player.

Bold is mine to focus on that. Two things:

1) Being constrained by fictional positioning and bearing the discipline of GMing principles and adherence to "the system's say" doesn't mean that you don't get to unleash your unbridled creativity. Some of this comes down to mental framework; what/how many balls you want in the air at any one time and how you perceive attention to this ball or that ball degrading either (a) attention to other balls, (b) attention to the juggling act as a whole, and/or (c) your enjoyment of the process (and attendant ability to stay fresh).

For instance. I have as much confidence in my ability to GM as any person who has ever run a roleplaying game. Yet, at this point in my GMing career (lets call it), I do not want the responsibility of managing or energizing a complex (complexity is key here) and inherently unbalanced or dynamism deficient combat (violent or social) system (assuming violent and social combat are supposed to be major arenas of resolution). Those are two separate balls (balance and dynamism). Some GMs may consider those extra balls in the air (responsibility/mandate) a gross increase in GM agency. I don't look at it that way at all. I consider it a net loss to my GMing agency, because when you put one or both of those balls in the air, all of my (a), (b), and (c) above are negatively affected. Needless to say, I am not pleased.

This is a big deal that we don't discuss enough (or with enough clarity):

"When is a gross increase in GM responsibility a net loss in GM agency (both near term due to cognitive workload/mental overhead issues and long term due to burnout)?"


I would love to have a conversation solely focused on that.

2) Consider this brief exchange from a Dungeon World play excerpt I linked upthread:

Saerie

Rawr and I have the aboleth. When I'm down on my knee drawing my bow, I slap the sheepdog on the rump and point to Otthor and his plight. The old boy gets the picture immediately and, with his usual hitch in his giddy-up, he takes off to defend his new companion.

As Rawr wades into melee with the aboleth that Otthor just tore from the ceiling, I see him cringe and shake his head momentarily. But I've seen him stick his snout dead into a bee-hive and eat dozens of stings for his trouble. This creature's sickening aura will do little to my stout friend.

An arrow flies from my bow.

Volley (Dex)
6, 1 + 2 (- 1 for peace-bond) = 8.

I'll choose to put myself in danger as described by the GM as my complication.

d8 (6) damage + 3 for Rawr. 9 - 1 = 8 damage to the aboleth.

GM

Your arrow flies true as Rawr's jaws clinch on black rubbery flesh. The creature reacts violently to the terrible maiming, it's alien, vertically stacked red eyes almost making expressions that are familiar to you. Tentacles fly wide, shoving against Rawr, trying to extract him. Two more jolt toward you, threatening to slam into you and take you from your feet!

So the player here has a somewhat constrained menu of prospective action declarations due to the fictional positioning she was dealing with (which is always the case in TTRPGs). She could have probably done 3-4 things with effectiveness approaching thematic/archetypal coherency and high prospects for success. She probably had a few more fairly decent decisions.

Then she has the agency of choosing her Volley complication; either (a) less damage, (b) spent Ammo (which she couldn't much afford at that point), or (c) danger.

When she chooses danger (which is very common in DW), my menu of options for that danger opens up dramatically. I went with the above, but due to all the pieces in play that I control and the (non-binary and multi-vector) nature of the system's machinery (resolution mechanics, tags and resource attrition/status effect system, and fictional trigger requirements for moves), I could have made probably a good dozen or more distinct moves that would changed the situation, observed fictional positioning continuity, observed the GMing principles and the games agenda, while escalating the threat level and introducing a new, interesting decision tree to one or both of the players.

So, on the strength of (1) and (2) above, my creativity does not feel particularly bridled when running Dungeon World (neither in the moment nor long term)!




Let us focus on that for now (these conversations wind all over the place that I feel we often miss the trees for the forest). I'll address the other two parts of your post in the upcoming days (my time is pretty limited right now).
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]

A well designed set of moves can serve to enhance the fantasy, to more meaningfully bring us into our characters' mind space. It can help bring the character's mental state, social obligations, emotional state, and inner life to the surface and help us make decisions as our characters would. The Team mechanics in Masks helps us feel like an actual team that supports each other. The strings mechanics in Monsterhearts help us to feel the weight of emotional dominance and hold other people have over us. Going Aggro models the commitment to doing violence that comes along with our characters' threats. Reading A Charged Situation helps model the thought process of someone in very real danger. The escalation mechanics in Dogs in the Vineyard models our tendency to double down or give in during tense situations. It's all about using the rules to align character and player interests, bring the tension of the moment to life, and help us view things from their perspective. The moves also have options to be used from one player character to another.

Let's talk about the way player moves function in play. You don't get to declare you are using a move. You need to establish fictional positioning in order to utilize a given move and you can always make moves that aren't like moves. When you declare something that your character does where no move applies we simply follow the fiction and the GM makes their moves that fit. You also do not get to not make the move when the fiction applies.

There is also the matter of there being less mechanics getting in the way. There is no action economy. Character growth is mostly outwards, rather than upwards. It uses abstracted rather than concrete ranges which in my experience match much more closely with the ways we interact with the world around us. Because we are engaging with the current situation and not concerned with the way things are supposed to go or happen or solving the adventure we are free to engage more fully with the fiction. We also only go to the dice for the sort of situations that should be tense for the character.

There are also matters of technique and principles to consider. Our questions help breathe life into these characters and ensure they have active inner lives. We address the characters not the players. We use countdown clocks to help players feel mounting pressure. We put players on the spot to make decisions for their characters. We convey the fictional world honestly so players can depend on their fictional reasoning and become invested in the fiction. We do not have easy release valves to escape the tension of the moment because the GM is playing to find out as well. We use NPCs with simple human desires and complicated relationships.

Most importantly we approach play as curious explorers of the fiction, advocating for our characters as best as we are able. Our characters are deeply connected to the setting, not outsiders. We are following them around as they live their messy, complicated lives and choose how to handle things. Because the action is focused on a particular location we really get to know it and the characters that live within it intimately.

Finally a preference for a less curated experience is not a preference for no curation. The tendency to rely on false binaries does not help get to meaningful analysis and criticism. I took [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] to task for this several times over the course of this thread. Please try to meet me halfway here.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I do not think it is very helpful to think in terms of what can be done with any given game. I think it is more helpful to think in terms of what is expected and how difficult it is break from those expectations. Does the system help you? Does it stay out of your way, but is not particularly helpful? Does it actively work against your interests? When I speak of system here I am including all the attended social and cultural pressures that go along with playing any particular game, not merely the mechanisms. I mean we do not need formalized mechanics and principles to roleplay. They can help us do things which are not particularly natural for us to do, but could lead to more overall enjoyment. I think it is a mistake to assume that the lack of formalized system means no system is in place. We simply default to the natural constraints we put upon ourselves. In indie circles this is known as the Lumpley Principle.

We have a tendency not to see the ways we are used to doing things as constraints, because they do not feel constraining to us. While few mainstream games speak to their principles there is a body of principles and social expectations that go along with the design of most mainstream games that I feel are deeply constraining for my interests. This includes the expectation that a GM will either engage in lengthy world building or use someone else's world building, that a GM will prepare adventures that put designs on how players should interact with them or else use someone else's adventures, that a GM should engage situations to enable spotlight balancing, and that a GM should advocate for a particular narrative. It also includes expectations that a player should enjoy exploration of the fictional world and a GM's story for its own sake, decide how to approach everything as a unified group, puzzle out what they should be doing at any moment, not engage the mechanisms too deeply, not engage with parts of an adventure that are meant to highlight another player's character, and not interrogate the fiction too deeply. These are social expectations involved in playing most mainstream games that I find deeply constraining and that tend to cut against my interests.

Yes to world building and using somebody else's world building.

No to prepare adventures that put designs on how players should interact with them, and rarely somebody else's adventures, almost never as written.

I can't stand spotlight balancing, nor do I advocate any narrative. Add in that I'm not particularly concerned about game balance in the same way others are.

I don't have any specific expectations that a player should enjoy exploration of the world, although I hope they do. How the world is explored is really up to the players, and I can adjust to their preferred style. What I do hope they'll enjoy more is the exploration of their character.

Working as a unified group makes things easier, but I'm also happy to run multiple parallel campaigns with one, two, or more characters at a time, and bring them together if/when appropriate. Nor do I think that there are parts of the story meant to highlight anybody (no spotlighting) so they are free to interact with what they'd like.

Oh, yeah, I play D&D. That's about as mainstream as it gets.

However, my approach is one that's developed over 35+ years of DMing, with home-brew A&D having set the stage so to speak. So the development of the world and what I expect of the rules is built from that. The 5e rules are just simpler and more elegant - with modifications.

Having grown up with the game during a period where home-brew was published monthly in Dragon magazine, I consider my approach "mainline" in the sense that the game has always been (to me) malleable and flexible, the intent to make it work for you.

I also acknowledge that somebody who starts playing now will expect relatively simple rules with fast advancement, and be able to pick up a "campaign" (AP) to play a character more or less from start to finish. If you started in 4e, then you'll have different expectations from the game than if you started in 3e. I think 4e was more prescriptive about the play style. You pretty much had to use a battle mat, whether you wanted to or not, for example. I think 3/3.5e required quite a bit more investment in learning the rules, only because there were so many variables. AD&D (at least up until the Complete series of books came out, and 5e, are much simpler from the player's perspective, for different reasons.

In other words, D&D is as mainstream as you choose to make it. But I get what you're saying, because when I run public campaigns, I feel very restricted in what I can do (or not do) as a DM. If I choose to limit races or classes, it's often a big deal, for example. What I think it really is, is the expectations that come with D&D. Although those expectations can vary widely, there are a number of things (like the ones you mention) that tend to be relatively common.

My solution? Well, one of them is that I love new players. I love helping them put together a character, and letting them loose in the world. No need to read through the rule-book - just tell me what your character does. The world is similar to ours in terms of physics, and you can really do, or attempt anything you'd like. We'll tell you how to figure out whether you succeed or not.

Of course, this sounds an awful lot like AD&D - the DM worries about the rules, you can focus on your character.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Let's talk about the way player moves function in play. You don't get to declare you are using a move. You need to establish fictional positioning in order to utilize a given move and you can always make moves that aren't like moves. When you declare something that your character does where no move applies we simply follow the fiction and the GM makes their moves that fit. You also do not get to not make the move when the fiction applies.
Either I'm really missing something here or this is saying the player-as-character is banned from the option of simply Doing Nothing in a given situation even when such would make sense. This seems...odd.

Lanefan
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Either I'm really missing something here or this is saying the player-as-character is banned from the option of simply Doing Nothing in a given situation even when such would make sense. This seems...odd.

Lanefan

Generally, the situations are constructed in such a way that a response/reaction is required/sensible/reflexive. The GM keeps the characters under pressure and constantly reacting. A character can freeze up and not react to the situation at which point the obvious unpleasant circumstance will resolve.

It's one of the areas I have some issue with as a player. Sometimes I like to overthink, plan, prepare for contingencies, and have a situation resolve anticlimactically because the characters are just that good. These sorts of indie games typically don't cover that form of success well. I suppose they can if you applied a fair amount of GM force to be folded/spindled/mutilated to fit.
 
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