Judgement calls vs "railroading"

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I think we should be careful about confusing our methods with our aims. A given set of techniques might bring about that sense of being there in the moment for a given player while not being well suited for another player. That is not necessarily evidence of radically different aims
No, it's evidence of radically different games! :)
Yet another thing that tends to bring me out of the fiction are dice rolls for perception, knowledge, and reaching a mutual accord. The rules of the game are making something tense for me as a player that are in no way tense for my character. It misaligns character and player interests.
Sometimes those things represent tension for the character as well; and if there's no tension for the character then why would there be for the player?

Lan-"though sometimes in this thread I've felt like rolling a knowledge die just to figure out what the hell I'm reading"-efan
 

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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]

There is tension for the player because they might miss something right in front of their eyes. Their character has no idea. They see what they see and know what they know. I also tend to see dice as ritualized tension. The weight in your hands as you roll them bones signifies something is at stake.

When it comes to characters reaching consensus with no leverage or manipulation being applied we already have a wonderful mechanic for that - their respective players reaching consensus. The thing we do in every moment of play where we accept each others contributions and consent to the fiction they bring to the table.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
There is tension for the player because they might miss something right in front of their eyes. Their character has no idea.
Nor does the player, so no tension; no worries. :)
They see what they see and know what they know.
Yep.
I also tend to see dice as ritualized tension. The weight in your hands as you roll them bones signifies something is at stake.
Ah. If rolling dice has become an automatic cue there's something at stake even if such isn't obvious to either the players or characters then I suggest sprinkling in some fake or meaningless rolls on an irregular basis, to disguise the ones that are for real. Otherwise it's just too easy to start meta-thinking "Aha! We're [players] rolling dice. There must be something significant going on - we'd [characters] better pay closer attention to everything than we were." every time the dice come out.

Lanefan
 

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]: For me, it depends a bit on the game.

In BW, I wouldn't ask "Who is this guy? Do you know him?" Because either, (i) it's framing, in which case I'm in charge (as GM), though perhaps using elements already established by the players, (ii) it's a consequence of a successful check, in which case the action declaration has already established what happens on a success, or (iii) it's a consequence of a failed check, in which case I'm narrating some adverse thing happening.

If, in circumstance (i) or (iii), a player volunteered some connection between his/her PC and the NPC, that would be quite permissible. Either I'd "say 'yes'", or I'd call for a check, or - if it was an attempt to revisit something that had already been tried and failed, then I'd enforce Let it Ride and so veto the attempt.

MHRP is a bit different, though. For instance, Wolverine's player earns 1 XP "when you declare someone an old ally or foe." In my MHRP game, the heroes were raiding a Clan Yashida office tower in Tokyo, looking for information (i) about the attempted theft of some Stark Tech, and (ii) about the whereabouts of Mariko, who was missing. At a certain point Wolverine was in combat with a NPC ninja/martial artist. Wolverine's player, in character, announced that he recognised this person, and their paths has last crossed in Hong Kong (? or Madripoor, or . . . I can't remember the details), and this time Wolverine was not going to let said ninja get the better of him. The XP was therefore earned, and the fiction established. There's no real sense that I've got veto rights as GM, and MHRP doesn't have a mechanic, analogous to a Lore or Circles check, that I can fall back on as a "roll the dice" alternative to "saying 'yes'".

I'll tag [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION] on this, because I know he's interested in difference of techniques/approach across different games, and this is an example where different system (at least to me) seem to generate different expectations over what sort of role the players will have in introducing content, and what the circumstances are in which permission to do so is enlivened.

Also, for completeness - on the whole I would tend to run 4e more like BW than MHRP.

Returning to the concept of "ask questions and use the answers", I think the very premise isn't compatible with my GMing style's emphasis on immersion and verisimilitude. And as a player, I don't see how I could maintain my IC focus when I'm confronted with an OOC request from the GM to add an element to the game world.

<snip>

Are your players simply phenomenal at flipping back and forth from thinking as their characters to thinking as themselves? Or, alternatively, do your players add the requested elements in-character (i.e. the character, rather than the player, is choosing how the character knows the newcomer)?
At least in my experience, when players are volunteering who their PCs might know, and how; or are declaring something like a Circles check or similar check (eg Streetwise in 4e) to meet a contact; that reinforces immersion and verisimilitude. Because it increases the player's sense of being able to move around in the gameworld with the same sense of comfort and predictability as the PC would experience.

At the start of my Cortex Fantasy game - for which I had written up pre-gen PCs - I asked the players to vote on the setting (Japan or Vikings - the PCs were suited to either), and then to help establish the basic logic of the game:

After people chose their characters, and we voted on vikings over Japan, the next step was to work out some background. The PCs already had Distinctions and Milestones (that I'd written up, picking, choosing and revising from the Guide and various MHRP datafiles) but we needed some overall logic: and the swordthane needed a quest (one of his milestones) and the troll a puzzle (one of his milestones).

So it turned out like this: the Berserker (who has Religious Expert d8) had noticed an omen of trouble among the gods - strange patterns in the Northern Lights; and similar bad portents from the spirit world had led the normally solitary scout (Solitary Traveller distinction, and also Animal Spirit) to travel to the village to find companions; and the troll, a Dweller in the Mountain Roots, had also come to the surface to seek counsel and assistance in relation to the matter of the Dragon's Curse; and, realising a need for a mission, the village chieftain chose the noblest and most honourable swordthane of the village - the PC, naturally - to lead it.

And so the unlikely party of companions set out.

It was the players of the berserker, the scout and the troll who came up with those motivations for converging on the village. If the campaign keeps going (so far we've played two short sessions) it will be my job, as GM, to weave them together in a way that speaks to the unfolding situation of play.

This isn't exactly the same as what Campbell said, but it's not utterly different either:

this sort of exchange where we are teasing out the details of the fiction whether written down beforehand or not is not something I view as playing the game. We can't play in the fiction until we know what it is.
 

pemerton

Legend
Another example of how player's contribute to the shared fiction: in that Cortex Fantasy viking game, the PCs came to a Steading (of the giant chieftain, as it happened . . . who'd have thought?).

The Scout climbed the pallisade while the others went to the gate. Mechanically, this was a check to establish an Asset - Overview of the Steading.

In the next turn sequence, the Scout made a check, which included that Asset in the pool, to establish a new Asset - Giant Ox in the Barn. I can't remember exactly what his pool for this included, but it would have had his Solo affiliation (he was on his own), his Animal Spirit distinction (being a werewolf himself, he has an affinity for animals), his Enhanced Senses, and his Outdoor Expertise. As well as his Overview of the Steading.

The check succeeded, and so he was able to see the giant ox in the barn, and lead it out. His next action was to try to use that ox to try and bribe the giant chieftain, but it didn't work because the giant, although Slow as Molasses, nevertheless recognised his own ox.

That was fun at the table. To me, at least, it had the ring of a fairy-tale to it, or of the more light-hearted stories about Norse gods tricking giants. But I think it's very hard to have this sort of stuff occur in play if the players aren't able to introduce the fictional elements they need into the game (eg in this case, the giant ox in the barn).

A strength of MHRP/Cortex for this sort of stuff is that it measure all Assets and the like in a common currency, and the same currency used to build dice pools and measure the success of resolution - so the Giant Ox in the Barn will have been a d8 or d10 (I can't remember which) asset, adding a clear, discrete benefit to the dice pool. Even if the player tries to create a "Particle Beam Weapon" asset for blowing up the giant, it will still be measured in the same currency, and provide the same benefit to the pool.

Thus, there is no incentive to break genre or try to establish "unreasonable" fiction. In combination with "subjective" DCs, the system puts the emphasis on engaging the fiction to create colourful events and vignettes, rather than a classic D&D-style eking out of victory by carefully husbanding resources.

This is a difference from Burning Wheel, which uses "objective" DCs, and where PCs can benefit from having beam weapons rather than oxen as their assets. That's one reason why rules like Let it Ride, or calling for a check rather than just "saying 'yes'", are more important in BW to manage player attempts to improve PCs' positions by directly contributing to the fiction. (BW also has other mechanisms, like its PC improvement rules, which create incentives for players to not always eke out every advantage that they might be able to.)
 

pemerton

Legend
If rolling dice has become an automatic cue there's something at stake even if such isn't obvious to either the players or characters then I suggest sprinkling in some fake or meaningless rolls on an irregular basis, to disguise the ones that are for real. Otherwise it's just too easy to start meta-thinking "Aha! We're [players] rolling dice. There must be something significant going on - we'd [characters] better pay closer attention to everything than we were." every time the dice come out.
Well, I think following that suggestion would defeat what [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION] was talking about.

This also relates back to some questions that [MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] and others asked about the OP, namely, why not just "say 'yes'" to the presence of a vessel in the room?

Picking up the dice, rolling them, calculating the result - this is part of the ritual of play, which (in BW, at least) signals that something that matters is at stake. I don't want to hide that. I want to emphasise it.

So if the PC walks into an inn out of the rain, and the player casually mentions "I hang my wet cloak on a hook at the door", that will be accepted without any need for comment - it's a moment of "saying 'yes'". But if the PC has arranged to send a signal to another character by hanging his/her cloak at the door - and it hasn't already been established, in the fiction, that there are hooks at the door - then that's the time for a check! The PC expects and hopes to hang his/her cloak; the player wants the same thing - the Inns-wise check will tell us whether or not there is a hook at the door. The prevalence of coat hooks at inn doors seems like something that would be pretty common knowledge, so the DC is probably low; but just picking up the dice and making the roll emphasises that something that matters is at stake here.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
For example, I don't think it means much to say that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s or [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s style is more "player-driven" than the other, because I'm not sure that there is a definition of "player-driven" that makes sense in both contexts simultaneously. Their games are just too different.

It's also not a helpful term to use. For the DM to drive the game, the players need to have no input at all. The game is effectively a story where the DM decides what will happen and what the PCs will do. If the players have control over their PCs, the game is not DM driven, but rather a collaborative effort.

I'm going to use a golf analogy. In my style of game, I as the DM set up certain events, back story, etcs. In effect I am aiming for the 2nd hole on the golf course and pulling back the driver for the swing. At that point everything stops. The players then decide whether they want to engage what I have set up and put the swing in motion towards the 2nd hole, or whether they want to pivot me and aim for a different hole or even move to a completely different golf course. At no point can that ball(D&D game) move anywhere without the players choosing to take that swing. It's a completely collaborative game. Neither side can drive it. The reverse is also true. A game cannot be player driven so long as the DM has input. The difference here between my style and the style of [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is which side pulls back the swing and which side engages the swing to put the ball in motion. Both styles are completely collaborative.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
It's absolutely true that immersion and verisimilitude can be enhanced or damaged by different things for different players. It's also true, however, that we might instead be using the same labels "immersion" and "verisimilitude" to refer to entirely different feelings.

Normally, I'd consider the risk of the latter extremely small, but since we appear to be using other terms to mean different things in this thread, in this case I consider it a distinct possibility.

Continuing an example from my previous post, the term "player-driven" appears to mean radically different things to pemerton and me. A game where the GM deliberately stymies player intent on a failed die roll (and is required to do so by the mechanics, no less), is incompatible with my usage of the term "player-driven". My usage is in no way privileged, so, since pemerton's usage differs, the term clearly has more usages than I was aware of. But until we can find a shared definition, I don't see how the term is a useful label in discussion.

Similarly, given that at [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s and [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]'s tables immersion and verisilimitude are enhanced by the same factors that detract from those feelings at my table, I think there is good cause to believe we may be defining the terms differently.

Maxperson said:
It's also not a helpful term to use. For the DM to drive the game, the players need to have no input at all. The game is effectively a story where the DM decides what will happen and what the PCs will do. If the players have control over their PCs, the game is not DM driven, but rather a collaborative effort.

I'm going to disagree in the abstract. I think the term usually has descriptive value as a measure of degree rather than as an absolute. I think it's a useful concept when comparing (e.g.) a sandbox game with an adventure path in similar styles of GMing. I assume the the term has similar descriptive value when comparing two of pemerton's games in his style of GMing. Until this thread, I would have thought the term was useful to compare two styles of GMing, but because our styles are so different, I just don't see how to meaningfully use the term to compare a game in my style with a game in his style.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'm going to disagree in the abstract. I think the term usually has descriptive value as a measure of degree rather than as an absolute. I think it's a useful concept when comparing (e.g.) a sandbox game with an adventure path in similar styles of GMing. I assume the the term has similar descriptive value when comparing two of pemerton's games in his style of GMing. Until this thread, I would have thought the term was useful to compare two styles of GMing, but because our styles are so different, I just don't see how to meaningfully use the term to compare a game in my style with a game in his style.
To me there is a difference between an adventure path, which leaves PC/Player autonomy intact, and a railroad which removes PC/Player choice. The former allows the PCs to engage the path or leave the path entirely if they wish. That's still a collaborative effort in my eyes. The latter forces things the way the DM wants them and creates a DM driven situation where the players have no real input.
 

darkbard

Legend
Yet another thing that tends to bring me out of the fiction are dice rolls for perception, knowledge, and reaching a mutual accord. The rules of the game are making something tense for me as a player that are in no way tense for my character. It misaligns character and player interests.

I couldn't agree with this more! And yet, I haven't found a good way to address this in 4E. As [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has articulated several times, often these moments (perception and knowledge checks) are ones where something important is at stake. Do you see the assassin lurking in the doorway's shadow, or does he get a surprise attack? Do you recognize the lumbering green-skinned brute as a Troll, and thus know to utilize fire and acid against it? I wouldn't want to deny player agency in such instances.

How do you handle these in your games without breaking player immersion and disrupting/falsely imposing the tension of the moment?
 

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