Judicious use and description of Minions [Edit-Now asking for stat analysis]

Interesting discussion. It's fun to see the different viewpoints on this topic. I've been asking myself the same question too recently.

My take is that minions should be described as weaker-looking monsters for those that know these monsters. Assessing humans is easier for a human. However, if you come up against zombies, then the Religion skill might be useful. Even without a knowledge check, i'll describe some zombies as looking weaker and some others as looking tougher than others. This might in some cases be misleading, but mostly it'll identify the minions. If the players want to challenge my description, they can make a knowledge check. Once a party has battled zombies many times before, i'll become clearer on which ones appear threatening and which don't. I don't think i'll ever clearly state that minions are minions, but i expect the players to be able to identify them say 90% of the time. Also, i'll be using minis that can help differentiate the minions from the others. I think this reflects how minions actually look different than others. Even for zombies.

It comes down to: what is a minion? It is a creature that, for it's type, is the run-of-the-mill opponnent. It is not good enough to sustain a prolonged battle, it will not be able to parry and duck and get out of arm's way: it'll die on the first occasion, or just about. I believe that these creatures can indeed be recognized by seasoned heroes having battle experience. Still no reason to meta-talk though.

On the matter of the wyrmpriest boosting the minion HPs: i won't do that myself. The wyrmpriest's effect won't work on the minions. I know at least one WotC staff member said it should; however i disagree. I believe it defeats the idea of the minion too much. I also believe it defeats the idea behind the wyrmpriest's power: to add 5HP to a 30 HP creature is a slight boost; while to add 5HP to a 1HP minion is a 500% increase.

Sky
 

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...and Ogre Minions?
This is the hardest one for me to imagine as well. For certain creatures, like Legion Devils, I have no preconception of the creature, so a Legionaire being a level 21 minion doesn't bother me so much. But an Ogre Bludgeoner or a Cyclops Warrior? I just have difficulty bringing myself to have a Cyclops Warrior go down in one hit.

I am certainly using minions, but I will try to pick more minion-like subjects to represent them.
 


...and Ogre Minions?

I could never bring myself to try and fool the players so they didn't know which was a 1-hp minion and who was a "real" monster - but to let them know "oh, yeah - these guys? they're minions" just seems to anti-climatic.

I've really just been figuring I'll avoid the whole issue and I just won't use minions at all.

Ogres were the most miniony 3.x monsters in my experience. They are scarey at 2 level & all but by the time you are 9th & you meet Giants with a few ogres tagging along then they are laughable. They get killed by stray AOEs & cleaves etc & pose no threat.

The difference in 4 is that they require less bookeeping & they do pose a threat.

Massed minions deserve respect - individually they are anticlimactic I guess but defeating a dozen & their leader is not.

The temporary HP issue is a bit irritating but in practice it has minimal effect. Only a few attacks will fail to kill them just about all the all the time (Cleave & Dragonborn breath - pretty much eveything else is dice plus 3-4 so has very good odds.)

I really recommend you try them out as they are fun.
 

I also believe it defeats the idea behind the wyrmpriest's power: to add 5HP to a 30 HP creature is a slight boost; while to add 5HP to a 1HP minion is a 500% increase.
The relevant metric should be how many hits it takes to kill: in many cases, there's no functional difference between 1 hp and 6 hp. (This is always true if your PC has a +5 damage bonus, as most do by 2nd level, or if he has a +4 damage bonus rolls and two damage dice.)

Cheers, -- N
 

...
On the matter of the wyrmpriest boosting the minion HPs: i won't do that myself. The wyrmpriest's effect won't work on the minions. I know at least one WotC staff member said it should; however i disagree. I believe it defeats the idea of the minion too much. I also believe it defeats the idea behind the wyrmpriest's power: to add 5HP to a 30 HP creature is a slight boost; while to add 5HP to a 1HP minion is a 500% increase.

Sky

You might as well let the effect work, after all, RAW, temporary hp protect minions not at all (except against hypothetical powers that explicitly call out temporary hp in a non-damage form).
 


Also, do minions crit?

Their damage is fixed, and a crit is just a maximization, so I have been going with no.

My rule is that minions can crit, but normally the crit doesn't do anything - it's just an auto-hit. Minion crits only become important when there's another monster that triggers a special effect when an ally crits.
 

This is the hardest one for me to imagine as well. For certain creatures, like Legion Devils, I have no preconception of the creature, so a Legionaire being a level 21 minion doesn't bother me so much. But an Ogre Bludgeoner or a Cyclops Warrior? I just have difficulty bringing myself to have a Cyclops Warrior go down in one hit.

I am certainly using minions, but I will try to pick more minion-like subjects to represent them.

If it helps, it’s really all about context. The time you would be using ogre and cyclops minions is paragon or even epic tiers. Look at it in 3X terms. What would a party of 15th level characters be able to do to 6 ogres? How many rounds would they live assuming the PCs didn’t ignore them?
 

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