Judicious use and description of Minions [Edit-Now asking for stat analysis]

[lukelightning]

I intend to make it pretty obvious who is and who is not a minion under most circumstances.... The only time I might do otherwise is under certain specific circumstances, like a body double type situation and such that has an actual story reason to exist.

You've articulated exactly what I was thinking but more succinctly than I could. Always make minions obviously minions.... so that when you don't it's a total rat-bastard surprise! It would get really tedious if minions were typically indistinguishable from regular monsters (players would be way too stingy with their enounter/daily powers).

Of course, there is a middle ground. When the players first encounter a bunch of bugbeasts (like bugbears, but moreso), they meet a mixed group consisting of some big bludgeoners and some dual-wielding bladed weapons. After a round or two of combat they quickly realize that the blade guys are minions, and when they encounter the same monsters later on they will still be minions; but the one dual-wielding glowing red scimitars of doom is obviously not a minion.

 

[Skyscraper]

This is the hardest one for me to imagine as well. For certain creatures, like Legion Devils, I have no preconception of the creature, so a Legionaire being a level 21 minion doesn't bother me so much. But an Ogre Bludgeoner or a Cyclops Warrior? I just have difficulty bringing myself to have a Cyclops Warrior go down in one hit.

I am certainly using minions, but I will try to pick more minion-like subjects to represent them.

I think it depends what kind of game you want to play. Do you want legions of vampire spawns to fly towards your 15th level ranger who'll fire them down in short order with his arrows? Or do you want a vampire to be a unique creature that requires your party to use most of its resources? And what happens when the PCs' level up?

I think there are different playstyles that can be accommodated by the monster manual; and the DM can simply use whatever monsters fit his and his group's playstyle. For example i don't like oozes or jello or pudding used as a monster; consequently, there are none in my campaign.

Still, on the matter of minions, i think it comes down to what minions are and, by extension, what hit points represent. Hit points are an abstraction that represent physical endurance, wound resistance, stamina, morale, ability to parry. Giving a creature a single hit point means that that creature lacks one or more of these abilities when faced by the PCs. Theoretically, a same minion creature could be embodied by a non-minion if it faced a different group of lower level PCs. For low-heroic tier PCs, it makes little sense to have them face ogre minions. However, at one point you might want ogres to be able to occasionally land a good blow on the PCs without having them standing on the battleground for a long time. I.e. the PCs are able to dispatch them quickly because now they know ogres well: the fighter is able to use a similar feint against them and drive his sword through their gut or cut their head off quickly. Maybe the ogres freak out when they see the PCs (i.e. morale is down) and they freeze when the fighter feint; maybe their skill is not good enough; maybe the fighter moves his sword in a flurry of strikes and tires the ogre in a matter of seconds (low stamina). In any event, it's not strong enough anymore against the fighter, not in any absolute evaluation. Like Aragorn in LOTR against the orcs: the latter don't survive a single blow against him and would be best represented by minions in a combat against a 25th level ranger. However, a single one of these orcs would be a good match against 1st level hobbit leaving the shire and might not be embodied by a minion in such a fight.

I've played D&D for just about 30 years now so i understand why some players have a hard time imagining ogre minions. I don't see ogre minions as an insult to the ogre race: i just see this as praise to the PCs' power at some point.

Sky

 

[Skyscraper]

The relevant metric should be how many hits it takes to kill: in many cases, there's no functional difference between 1 hp and 6 hp. (This is always true if your PC has a +5 damage bonus, as most do by 2nd level, or if he has a +4 damage bonus rolls and two damage dice.)

Cheers, -- N

Quite true, thank you for this precision.

Back to the original point though... If providing them with 5 temporary hit points serves no purpose, why do it? Edit: not that i'm saying that you suggest that by your post.

Sky

 

[Mengu]

If it helps, it’s really all about context. The time you would be using ogre and cyclops minions is paragon or even epic tiers. Look at it in 3X terms. What would a party of 15th level characters be able to do to 6 ogres? How many rounds would they live assuming the PCs didn’t ignore them?

I guess I can see that. Fighting some Hill Giants accompanied by a few Ogre Thugs... Still don't quite see the Cyclops Warriors, but I haven't really played any game so high a level that Cyclopes would be considered riff-raff.

 

[OchreJelly]

At first glance, the large or huge monsters feel off-putting as minions. I know the feeling. Then I just read some Conan comics to reset that expectation.

 

[Nifft]

Quite true, thank you for this precision.

Back to the original point though... If providing them with 5 temporary hit points serves no purpose, why do it? Edit: not that i'm saying that you suggest that by your post.

It doesn't protect them from a direct hit with almost any power, but it does protect them from death by side-effect.

For example: Cleave typically inflicts 3-4 points of damage on a minion, which is 2-3 more than he has. But a 1+5 temp hp Minion can survive two such side-effects.

Similarly scaled damage effects: Cloud of Daggers and the side-effect of a Pact Blade.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Staffan]

This is the hardest one for me to imagine as well. For certain creatures, like Legion Devils, I have no preconception of the creature, so a Legionaire being a level 21 minion doesn't bother me so much. But an Ogre Bludgeoner or a Cyclops Warrior? I just have difficulty bringing myself to have a Cyclops Warrior go down in one hit.

Some minions are more meta-gamey than others, and that includes these.

The non-minion ogres in the book are levels 8, 8, and 11E. An ogre thug is a level 11 minion, so that's the minion that accompanies other ogres. There's also the ogre bludgeoneer, a level 16 minion. That one's there to add in a group with some giants, and it's probably the same kind of ogres you fought at 8th level. Both an ogre savage and an ogre bludgeoneer are, after all, worth 350 XP. But instead of spicing up the encounter with the fire giants with 6 savages that have AC 19 and 111 hp, use bludgeoneers with AC 28 and 1 hp.

There are similar examples for other monsters, where there is a minion version that's higher level than most of the normal versions. This is why.

 

[lukelightning]

How about Arcana, nature, religion, and streetwise skills to identify minions?

Arcana: "You have read that the legion devils are the common footsoldiers of the devil armies" (hint hint, minion).

Nature: "You know that the spear-wielding goblins are likely to be the runts of the tribe."

Religion: "In your religious studies, you learned that while skelephants are mighty undead beasts, the necromantic magic binding their bones together is easily disrupted."

Streetwise: "Everybody knows that the redshirts of the Sewer Urchin gang are the lowest rank."

 

[Skyscraper]

It doesn't protect them from a direct hit with almost any power, but it does protect them from death by side-effect.

For example: Cleave typically inflicts 3-4 points of damage on a minion, which is 2-3 more than he has. But a 1+5 temp hp Minion can survive two such side-effects.

Similarly scaled damage effects: Cloud of Daggers and the side-effect of a Pact Blade.

Cheers, -- N

Hmm. So giving them those 5 HP will allow them to survive some attack side effects. Or, in the case of a 1st-level adventure (as is the case with the DMG intro adventure), they might survive the full power of some attacks if they're lucky. It'll keep some minions alive for more than a hit, in other words.

So back to my first point, it increases their survivability significantly. Other creatures might also resist for one additional hit due to those 5 HPs - out of 4 or 5. Minions might resist for one additional hit over the single one normally required.

I dunno. I'm still pretty glad that we don't need to keep track of hit points for minions. I'm also pretty happy that a minion drops in a single hit. Giving them temporary hit points goes against that.

Minions not benefitting from temporary hit points does not really bug me, flavor-wise or game-wise. These guys are supposed to be weak enough to drop when attacked. I'm not saying that allowing 5 HP to be added to minions make no sense; just that i prefer it the other way. I might change my mind once i've had more play experience (i've just started my first 4E game last Friday).

Sky

 

[Nifft]

So back to my first point, it increases their survivability significantly.

Yes, it does -- but in proportion. Most normal non-minion critters will get an extra half-a-hit or so from +5 hit points; minions get the same benefit.

I dunno. I'm still pretty glad that we don't need to keep track of hit points for minions. I'm also pretty happy that a minion drops in a single hit. Giving them temporary hit points goes against that.

I've considered making temporary hit points an all-or-nothing kind of deal for minions: if they have temp HP, they lose all of them on a hit. So I only have to track two states (per minion) and one number: alive, alive with temp hp, and the number of temp hp +1 (to know if they die from any given single attack).

Cheers, -- N