Judicious use and description of Minions [Edit-Now asking for stat analysis]

[Mongo1967]

Mongo and Jas. The expanded crit idea was simply an example and not intended as any sort of mathematical tested way to equalize the minion mechanic! I would do a lot of playtesting and tweaking before instituting anything like that. Though there probably *is* a reasonable alternative along those lines if someone truly hates them the way they are.

If I offended, then I apologize. That was not my intent.

The point of the example was only to show that Minions as created were made with 1 HP for a specific reason - ease of use - and not to trick players or make combats more confusing or random. Which is exactly what Minions do if the players do not have a easy way to identify them.

Especially as a controller, I find it’s a ‘awful idea’ for DM’s to play them as simply identical to normal creatures, but who just happen to fall in one hit. Even the developers suggest against doing that. They are merely 'mooks' filling the same role as weaker lower level creatures did in past editions, and should be recognizable as such.

Because in the case they are not, the game begins to be ruled by the same randomness that cripples encounters in the way Mongo alleged in my example, ("Oops did I target the 5 'real' orcs instead of the minions, sorry, I guess were going to die because I guessed wrong"). If Minions are however fairly easy to discern, regardless if by skill checks descriptions or what not, I am fine with them as is.

They were given separate equipment, powers and suggested descriptions for a reason. Precisely, for the very fact that they are not supposed to be dummy or cardboard versions of brutes or soldiers, and as such, should in most cases be quickly identified by veteran adventurers in the same way that they can tell the difference between a Flaming Skeleton and a common skeleton or a Brute Ogre and a Shaman Ogre.

Emphasis mine.

I think there's a sizable difference between "immediately and at all times" and "quickly." If this information is metagamed in such a way that minions are no longer challenging, then there's a problem with them. In the encounters I've run I've noticed that having this information in the first or second round leads to the minions underperforming, particularly if the PC's surprise their foes.

When I first started running 4e, I used Small figures to represent minions. This did not work well, as the PC's were too able to optimize their actions. It was frustrating both ways. I wanted the minions to be more effective, they felt they weren't being properly challenged. More recent encounters have gone much more smoothly. Frankly, the uncertainty has made them a little more cautious and made them less likely to "front load" the early rounds. This is more realistic and balanced, which makes it more fun.

 

[alberand]

I no longer tell my players which monsters are minions up front, because when I did, I found that they were generally eliminated before they could have any effect on the combat.

Now I will generally mix 2-3 different types of minis to represent minions, and only descibe them as dirty, rag-tag, in response to knowledge checks if it seems appropriate based on the creature type, the disparity of equipment between minions and other monsters, or the particular setting (minions in a band of goblin warriors are probably not discernible as such, whereas goblin slaves being driven to attack by a larger monster probably seem weak and uninterested in fighting except by force).

A fight containing minions is generally descibed something like this: "All of these guys are wearing well-worn leather armor; some of them brandish short swords, while others hold javelins at the ready. This one over here in the robe holds a staff with various bits of cloth and fetishes hanging from it. She shouts something in a sharp, guttural language and the rest begin to advance on your position."

I will mix up the weapons that minions wield (some swords, some spears, etc), and always roll a die when minions deal damage, occasionally varying it (perhaps from 3-5 instead of a straight 4). I also make the players roll damage for every attack.

This approach keeps the players from knowing which monsters are minions right out of the gate, so they do not immediately wipe all of them out with area attacks, but still allows them to sort out which are minions within a few rounds and then start to act accordingly - not unlike a band of warriors assessing their foes during combat and beginning to exploit their weaknesses as they are discovered.

I have no problem with players using encounter powers on minions, because they are still eliminating one opposing creature from the fight in a single shot, and they generally get the power back before the next fight.

However, if they use a daily, I will often do one of two things: 1) pump the minion so that it takes an extra hit or two (regardless of damage) to drop, so that the player does not feel they have "wasted" their daily, or 2) if they roll high damage, I will say something like "with a mighty swing of your axe, you lop the creature's head clean off of its shoulders and kick the body down the well."

Even if the player later realizes that the creature was a minion, they still feel pretty badass about the maneuver and rarely regret it.

From the other side of the screen, I once wanted to use an encounter power to hit a monster and push it into a pit trap, but the DM said "uhh, you know that's a minion, right?" I probably should have realized that, but I would have felt better walloping it and sending a corpse down the pit than saying "oh, then I guess I won't do that" and ending up not finding another use for my power until after the fight.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

However, if they use a daily, I will often do one of two things: 1) pump the minion so that it takes an extra hit or two (regardless of damage) to drop, so that the player does not feel they have "wasted" their daily,

Are you saying that if a player uses a Daily on a minion, you bump the minion up so it survives the blow and takes another hit or two to take it down?
If that's so, I wonder how this is supposed to make a player feel they have not wasted a daily power, since using it makes the fight more dangerous and the most powerful attack a player has doesn't fell a creature that an At Will power would defeat! That seems wasted to me.

 

[Syrsuro]

Are you saying that if a player uses a Daily on a minion, you bump the minion up so it survives the blow and takes another hit or two to take it down?
If that's so, I wonder how this is supposed to make a player feel they have not wasted a daily power, since using it makes the fight more dangerous and the most powerful attack a player has doesn't fell a creature that an At Will power would defeat! That seems wasted to me.

I can see doing this. But if one did so, I would also recommend taking an undamaged or lightly damaged non-minion and turning it into a minion. Thus their 'encounter v. former minion' attack is not wasted and the encounter is kept at the same difficulty level. (Note: I am in the 'no one knows which are the minions until they fall over - and perhaps not even then' category - and thus the goal would be to make the player feel that his attack mattered without making him aware of any 'bending' I did to the rules to make that happen).

On the other hand, if (as happened recently) the minion in question was an annoyingly (from the player's perspective) lucky critter that had been missed three times and had hit the PC a couple of times - and thus he was using the encounter power on it because they really wanted to get rid of it - I'd likely just leave it a minion and let the PC get his revenge/let it be splattered. It depends on what 'feels right' for the flow of the encounter.

Carl

Carl