Juggernaut..resurrected?

[Egres]

Just to avoid a stupid reply like the one i have posted in the WotC board,here is my counter argument for you Methos.

From the SRD:

Mind Switch
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 6
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: You and one other creature
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 11, XP
You can attempt to take control of a nearby living creature, forcing your mind (and soul) into its body, and its mind into your body. You can target any creature whose Hit Dice are equal to or less than your manifester level.
You possess the target’s body and force the creature’s mind into your body unless it succeeds on a Will save. You can move your mind back into your own body whenever you desire, which returns the subject’s mind to its own body and ends the power. If the manifestation succeeds, your life force occupies the host body, and the host’s life force takes over yours.
You can call on rudimentary or instinctive knowledge of the subject creature, but not upon its acquired or learned knowledge (such as skills and feats it possesses). The same is true for the subject in your body. The mind switch brings about the following changes.
• You gain the type of your assumed body.
• You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of your assumed body.
• You gain the natural armor, natural attacks, movement, and other simple physical characteristics of your assumed body.
• You gain the extraordinary special attacks and qualities of your assumed body, but you do not gain supernatural or spell-like abilities.
• You gain the possessions and equipment of your assumed body.
• You retain your own hit points, saving throws (possibly modified by new ability scores), class abilities, supernatural and spell-like abilities, spells and powers, and skills and feats (although skill checks use your new ability scores, and you may be temporarily unable to use feats whose requirements you do not meet in your new body).

As you can see you gain the (Ex) qualities of the body,even if the body owner's soul is now in your original body.

As you can see this power shows that the (Ex) qualitites are part of the body,and not of the soul.

A soul has the independant choice of returning when a raise dead spell is cast, but cannot do anything else. Unless you count traveling to the Outer Planes

Would you say that because a dead creature can say Yes or No as a result of a spell casted , we could consider it "active" in order to classify it as a "Creature" as described in the PHB glossary?

If this isn't against the spirit of the rules,i don't know what "against the spirit of the rules" means.

Just imagine:a living creature dies...and becomes an "active being"....?!?
Are you really thinking that the writers of the PHB had this in mind when they wrote the PHB glossary?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

One thing clarified..

The writers of the various soul related spells didn't talk to each other

As to the Mind Switch gaining EX abilities, note that the description states "Of your assumed body", not that of the deposed mind/souls class.
Its really the same as the Magic Jar with the exception that a Magic Jar transfer does not impart the knowledge of how to use the bodies inherent EX abilities whereas Mind Switch does.


I think 'Soul' needs to be codified, perhaps as a new type. Until it is, the only thing we have left is extrapolation and guesswork.
From the spell descriptions we can come up with a close estimate.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Then why doesn't SR apply to speak with dead, which also targets a dead creature?

The "Spell Resistance: No" in the stat block would be my first guess

How can you be "willing" if you are dead? You have no Widsom, you have no "will".

In the same way that "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing", I'd imagine. Although that would suggest that souls always agree to be raised, and the implication in the spell is that they have a choice in the matter...

Now read the entire section and not just that one sentence.

CASTING TIME
Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action.

A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1- round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.

A spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

... I'm not seeing anything that changes my reading...? I'm still getting that all decisions are made when the spell comes into effect...?

To this you'll no doubt repeat the argument that's been so popular in this debate: "Since the healing immunity prevents the juggernaut from being raised, it obviously remains in effect after the juggernaut's died, and obviously replaces the rule stating that warforged can be raised. Therefore, the healing immunity prevents the juggernaut from being raised."

I'd say "If class features are retained in death, the Juggernaut is immune to spells from the Healing subschool, including Raise Dead, even in death. If class features are not retained, he is not immune."

The key is answering the question - are class features retained?

-Hyp.

 

[Sejs]

How can you be "willing" if you are dead? You have no Widsom, you have no "will".

You're thinking of int, actually, but the point still stands.

If an Intelligent Sword is "killed", can it be Rezzed? Can it be the target of Speak w/ Dead? Can you cast other spells which effect "souls" on an Intelligent weapon?

Nope, an intelligent weapon was never alive despite being sentient - no con score. Same with non Living Construct type constructs. Undead are kinda zany because they had a con score at one point, but don't now.

More of a morals question, but... Do animals really have souls? If they don't, then I assume they can't be rezzed, right? If they do, then wouldn't killing them (for food or sport) be considered an evil act?

They do have souls, and no killing something (particularly for food) is not an evil act.

If I cast Greater Scry on a person who is, unbeknownst to me, dead... Would the spell go off? Would I be detecting their corpse or their soul or something else?

You'd scry his corpse. Once you found out he's dead, and assuming the DM gives the okay, you could try to scry on his soul - but his soul will be getting either a +10 or a +15 on the will save. It's on another plane (+5), and either you're familiar with it but you've never met it (+5) or you have no familiarity with it whatsoever (+10) depending on things are interpreted.

 

[Caliban]

... I'm not seeing anything that changes my reading...? I'm still getting that all decisions are made when the spell comes into effect...?

The PHB goes into a little more detail than the SRD in this case:

3.5 PHB, page 174, last sentence of Casting Time

For example, when casting a summon monster spell, you need not decided where where you want the monster to appear...until the spell comes into effect in the round after you begin casting.

This indicates that you can choose your target before the spell comes into effect, but you don't have to.

3.5 PHB, page 175, Aiming A Spell, Target or Targets, first paragraph, last sentence

However, you do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

Note that it does not say that you must wait until you are finished casting the spell to select a target.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The PHB goes into a little more detail than the SRD in this case.

Ah, fair enough - I'm posting from work.

Okay, I'll concede that the target can be selected ahead of time.

Nevertheless, I still don't see how the spell can have an effect (contacting the deceased) before it comes into effect.

The casting time is how long it takes before the spell does anything... until the spell comes into effect, the spell isn't in effect...

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Ah, fair enough - I'm posting from work.

Okay, I'll concede that the target can be selected ahead of time.

Nevertheless, I still don't see how the spell can have an effect (contacting the deceased) before it comes into effect.

The casting time is how long it takes before the spell does anything... until the spell comes into effect, the spell isn't in effect...

-Hyp.

I'm saying that contacting the spirit of the deceased is not an effect of the spell being completed, it's part of the casting of the spell. Yes, I know it doesn't actually say it anywhere, but I think it makes sense in the context of the spell. It fits in with the theme of the spell, it makes good roleplaying sense, and players will be heavily tempted to metagame this type of choice anyway.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... and players will be heavily tempted to metagame this type of choice anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean?

Whether or not to return?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

I'm not sure what you mean?

Whether or not to return?

-Hyp.

Whether or not to lower your spell resistance (assuming your character has it), on the off chance that someone might try to raise you. (This decision would probably be made right after the player overhears the other players decide to pay for the raise dead for his character...)

And if you want to say that a dead character can't choose to lower their spell resistance, why does the Raise Dead spell say "Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)"? That indicates that somehow a dead creature can choose to lower it's spell resistance.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And if you want to say that a dead character can't choose to lower their spell resistance, why does the Raise Dead spell say "Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)"? That indicates that somehow a dead creature can choose to lower it's spell resistance.

Oh, absolutely - I'm sure they can.

But they need to do it on their turn, on the round before the spell comes into effect, so that it's down when the spell tries to raise them...

-Hyp.