Juggernaut..resurrected?

[Hypersmurf]

Glad I don't play with you then. If you're going to literally rules lawyer someone into permanent death...

It's not permanent. You just need someone with a good caster level check.

Also, you can choose the target before the spell comes into effect if you want. You just aren't required to.

"You make all pertinent decisions..."

Not "You can make..."

-Hyp.

 

[Egres]

Glad I don't play with you then. If you're going to literally rules lawyer someone into permanent death...

Hey!

That's what i'm trying to avoid with the Juggernaut!

About dead creatures with class features:

Do you fear Vile damage?

No problems!

Don't you rememeber that Halfling Sacred Exorcist?

Just kill him and carry him with you!

Youi''l get his consecrated aura around you for free!
Forever!

Just cast Gentle Repose from time to time.....

 

[Iku Rex]

ECS (page 23) states that warforged can be affected by spells of the healing sub-school, albeit at half-strength. Yet the prestige class specifically contradicts that very statement (ECS page 84) with the healing immunity class feature. Healing immunity states “… juggernaut becomes more like a construct and less like a living creature, it becomes immune to the effects of spells from the healing sub-school”. Interesting, this statement completely contradicts that of the one under warforged traits that specifically permits it.

Uh, yes. The rule saying that juggernauts are immune to healing spell replaces the above rule. However, the rule saying that warforged can be resurrected is not contradicted in the PrC description.

To this you'll no doubt repeat the argument that's been so popular in this debate: "Since the healing immunity prevents the juggernaut from being raised, it obviously remains in effect after the juggernaut's died, and obviously replaces the rule stating that warforged can be raised. Therefore, the healing immunity prevents the juggernaut from being raised."

As you can (hopefully) see, this is a wholly circular argument.

It boils down to this: According to the living construct subtype, warforged can be raised or resurrected. There is no 50% chance of failure when you cast these spells, there are no "half-dead" resurrected warforged running about.

You insist that this rule doesn't apply to juggernauts. Fine. The burden of proof is on you.

But they do. Reread both Construct Perfection and Healing Immunity. Let me post them here for you. <snip>

I'm confused. The reason normal constructs can't be raised is that they - and I quote - were never alive.

While the juggernaut's class abilities replaces some of the living construct traits, it remains a living construct. It is still affected by spells that target living creatures. It still has a Con score. It does not get bonus construct hit points.

This, I’m not for sure. I wonder if it is their way to attempt to balance the juggernaut out. My reasoning? Simple, look at everything the juggernaut is immune to after a 5 level prestige class.

So presumably the idea is that the juggernaut is overpowered, thus making the game less fun? To counter this they force the player to make a new character against his will when the character dies, thus making the game less fun?

Somehow I don't get it.

Let me ask again: Why would the designer not spell it out if he didn't want juggernauts to be resurrected? Didn't he think it would be a big deal?

 

[Iku Rex]

Well, Raise Dead is "Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)".

Since the only targets it can be cast on are dead creatures, the implication is that dead creatures retain their Spell Resistance...

Then why doesn't SR apply to speak with dead, which also targets a dead creature?

 

[Iku Rex]

What if you cut of his hand? Does that have spell resistance? Which remains get SR and which don't?

*shrug* Parts is parts.

So what you're saying is... What?

Resurrection lets you raise someone with just a "part", instead of the whole body. I suppose this means that parts have class abilities, feats, spell resistance and ability scores, just as corpses. Right?

 

[Piratecat]

I'd argue that if you're dead, your spell resistance is voluntarily lowered.

Frankly, it's not much fun to do it the other way, and with two choices being equal I always choose the one that's more entertaining for the players.

 

[Methos of Aundair]

Ah Iku, I don’t believe you understand what I’m saying. My original point was that you contradicted yourself with your own statement. Let me try again using the following statement:

All warforged juggernauts have the "living construct" subtype. Among other things, this specifically permits the character to be raised or resurrected.

Notice you state the “living construct” subtype specifically permits the character to be raised or resurrected. My interpretation of that remark made me believe you were stating that the living construct subtype overruled the statement in the juggernaut description. My points about the half-strength healing and the healing immunity were an attempt to point out that the prestige class specifically went against, or changed, the statements of the living construct subtype. Notice, I never argued about resurrection or raise dead in that post, I merely used examples with the healing subschool. My basic point, if the prestige class contradicts/overrules/changes a statement in the warforged on half-strength healing, than why can’t the prestige class do the same with raise dead and resurrection. I hope that better explains my point.

"Since the healing immunity prevents the juggernaut from being raised

Sorry, but you misquoted the healing immunity. The healing immunity causes the juggernaut to become immune to the effects of spells from the healing subschool.

It boils down to this: According to the living construct subtype, warforged can be raised or resurrected. There is no 50% chance of failure when you cast these spells, there are no "half-dead" resurrected warforged running about.

Uh, why would there be a 50% chance? I don’t recall any one saying this. As to the warforged being able to be raised, you are correct. A 3rd level juggernaut cannot.

You insist that this rule doesn't apply to juggernauts.

I don’t insist, any DM who chooses to allow juggernauts to be raised is fine by me, in fact, more power to him. It’s entirely up to the DM. As to the rule not applying to juggernauts, I’m not exactly for sure what you are talking about. If you mean that they cannot be raised, than yes, I agree with that. The healing immunity implies that very fact.

I'm confused. The reason normal constructs can't be raised is that they - and I quote - were never alive.

Good point, in this I have errored. Earlier we were discussing the CD and in it there is a statement mentioning some creatures don’t have souls and therefore cease to exist when they die. The next line uses constructs as an example. My mistake, I was going by that rather than the construct subtype out of the MM.

 

[Caliban]

"You make all pertinent decisions..."

Not "You can make..."

-Hyp.

Now read the entire section and not just that one sentence.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

My 2 cents..

"MyPOV" = My Point Of View.

I was encapsulating what I gleaned from the rest of this thread so that others who read my first post on the matter would know where I was coming from.

Its interesting to me that no one has taken objection to this interpretation or provided suggestions to change it.

I also find it interesting that no one has comments on the conclusions I had drawn. I enjoy an occasional debate for debates sake, but much prefer when the debate in question actually is on the stated subject instead of running rabbbit trails all over the place.

Speaking of rabbit trails, your comment on the Sacred Halfing upthread is the reason why I interpret the soul as the carrier of the character aspects. Physical manifestations, such as a dragon disciples new wings, remain on the corpse but aura's and such are encapsuled within the soul. These abilities return with the soul when raised, altho some of the abilities may be lost in translation... which is reflected in game mechanics by a level loss.
As an interesting aside, this would mean that a reincarnated Dragon Disciple would grow new wings in its new form, but a winged Elf reincarnated into a non winged form would not be able to use the Fly-By-Attack feat taken by the character until some new form of flying is found.

Anyway, I believe that the interpretation I offer provides answers to most, if not all, of the issues on this thread and look forward to having holes poked in it so that I can improve my interpretation.. and hence improve the game I provide to my players.

JMHO

 

[Iku Rex]

My interpretation of that remark made me believe you were stating that the living construct subtype overruled the statement in the juggernaut description. My points about the half-strength healing and the healing immunity were an attempt to point out that the prestige class specifically went against, or changed, the statements of the living construct subtype.

So, since some statements of the living construct subtype are replaced by the juggernaut's class abilities, any statement of the living construct subtype can be discarded without contradicting any rules? My point is that your point is no point at all.

Sorry, but you misquoted the healing immunity. The healing immunity causes the juggernaut to become immune to the effects of spells from the healing subschool. .

And this does not prevent the juggernaut from being raised?

Notice, I never argued about resurrection or raise dead in that post, I merely used examples with the healing subschool. My basic point, if the prestige class contradicts/overrules/changes a statement in the warforged on half-strength healing, than why can’t the prestige class do the same with raise dead and resurrection.

Why is that relevant? Of course the prestige class can override that rule. But it doesn't.

Uh, why would there be a 50% chance?

Isn't it obvious? Spells from the healing subschool provide only half their normal effect to warforged. What is half the normal effect of raise dead?

As to the warforged being able to be raised, you are correct. A 3rd level juggernaut cannot.

Why? Oh, right. Because they can't.