Juggernaut..resurrected?

[Primitive Screwhead]

What condition is your condition in?

Interesting thread... I don't think you will find a 'set in stone by the RAW' answer on this one. The PHB and DMG were written when the idea of a Living Construct was not existant. This addition requires some clarification, adjudment of those rules.

Recap:

Creature: a living or active being capable of independant choice.

Dying Creature: a living or active being capable of independant choice who has less than zero hit points and more that -10 hit points.

Dead Creature: A previously living or active being whose soul can be returned from its journey to the outer planes. Also called a Corpse and can be targeted with some spells that affect objects. CON is reduced to zero. Subject to natural decay and rot.

Remains: a previously living or active being whose soul cannot be returned from its journey to the outer planes. 'Remains' are Objects, also called a Corpse. Subject to natural decay and rot.

Soul: The soul carries all the aspects of the character, so when attempting to raise a non-willing character, you must beat any SR and/or save of that character. A soul is *not* of any type found in the PHB or DMG. It cannot affect anything on any plane of existance outside of a manifestation it inhabits. The manifestation is has a Type. So a soul can be brought back as Undead or raised as Humanoid or reincarnated as whatever.Souls can only be affected by ceratain spells cast on the Dead Creature they last inhabited. These spells are listed as targeting either 'Dead Creature' or 'Corpse'.

By the RAW, an outsider or construct who is slain skips the 'Dead Creature' condition and goes straight to 'Remains'.
Other characters become 'Dead Creatures', then once thier souls journey to the outer plane is complete their Corpse becomes 'Remains'.

Rebutalls:
Caliban: Per RAW, the only stat adjustment when a character gains the condition of 'Dead' is Con reduced to Zero.

Egres: Loss of use of a Feat does not automatically invalidate abilities built on that Feat. It just means he can't Power Attack until he regains his strength. If the you chose to house rule that way, you have nerfed Juggernaughts and made 'Ray of Enfeeblement' the primary combat spell around.

Class abilities have nothing to do with it. The question is where does the characters soul go upon death, and how long does it take to get there. Humanoids have souls that travel to the outer planes. Outsiders have souls that are instantly destroyed. Constructs don't have a soul. Living Constructs...do they have souls? If they do, what happens to those souls upon death?

I dont have access to my copy of Eberron, perhaps its buried in there somewere. If not....

In closing:
Can Juggernaughts be Resurected? It depends on how you rule the 'Construct Perfection' and how your campaign handles life after Living Construct death and the assorted moral questions related to that.
Either ===
no they can't, they either have no soul or their souls are destroyed with their bodies. They only have this life to live and nothing awaits them on the other side of the curtain.
or
no they can't, thier souls immediately depart thier bodies and inhabit a Ghostly manifestation on the plane of Doluur. On occasions when the veil of death is thin, they may wander the Prime Material plane as Undead.
or
Yes, they are like other beings in the world. They are created with new souls and those souls travel to Doluur as do those of Humanoids and Giants.
or
Yes, they are like all other sentient beings in the world. The Creation Forges are part Reincarnation machines and the souls of the Warforged are on thier eternal journey towards perfection. Sometimes a WarForged will remember a previous life, but usually they are blissfully ignorant of past or future potentials.
or
You will walk out that door and remember that you don't believe in any of this Fate cr$p.....
or... a plethora of possibilities..

 

[Hypersmurf]

The fact that you are using magic to contact them after they have died, obviously.

They know what's happening, or they wouldn't have a choice about coming back.

Choosing to be a willing target is not an action, and can be done on someone else's turn.

Lowering SR is a standard action, and can only be performed on your turn.

So at the instant the Raise Dead spell goes off, their SR is still up, since they didn't lower it on their turn. (If anything, it's the surprise round.) And by the time their turn comes around, the spell has already either beaten their SR and succeeded, or it's failed... so lowering their SR at that point is futile.

-Hyp.

 

[Patlin]

It's important, IMO, that PCs be subject to ressurection. Therefore, regardless of how the rules-as-written should be interpreted, it is possible in my campaigns. If you want an alternate solution, Revive Construct could easilly be put forth as a standard Clerical spell equivalent in almost every way to Ressurection. I've seen spells that have that effect for outsiders...

 

[Egres]

Primitive Screwhead:i don't know where you have found those rules...who's "myPOV"?

However...

Caliban: Per RAW, the only stat adjustment when a character gains the condition of 'Dead' is Con reduced to Zero.

Yes..but per RAW:

Any creature that can physically manipulate other objects has at least 1 point of Strength
Unless you can show us that dead creatures can phisically manipulate other objects,i think you should admit that they have a Str score of 0,as Caliban said.

Egres: Loss of use of a Feat does not automatically invalidate abilities built on that Feat. It just means he can't Power Attack until he regains his strength.

I simply looked at page 16 of the CW.

If the you chose to house rule that way, you have nerfed Juggernaughts and made 'Ray of Enfeeblement' the primary combat spell around.

?
'Ray of Enfeeblement' is a Necromantic spell.

Juggernauts have nothing to fear from it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Any creature that can physically manipulate other objects has at least 1 point of Strength
Unless you can show us that dead creatures can phisically manipulate other objects,i think you should admit that they have a Str score of 0,as Caliban said.

Not at all.

That line tells us two things.

1. If the creature can manipulate objects, it has at least 1 point of Strength.
2. If the creature has 0 Strength, it cannot manipulate objects.

It doesn't tell us:
a. If the creature has at least 1 point of Strength, it can manipulate objects.
b. If the creature cannot manipulate objects, it has 0 Strength.

As written, the line does not preclude the existence of a creature with 10 Strength who cannot manipulate objects.

-Hyp.

 

[Egres]

Not at all.

That line tells us two things.

1. If the creature can manipulate objects, it has at least 1 point of Strength.
2. If the creature has 0 Strength, it cannot manipulate objects.

It doesn't tell us:
a. If the creature has at least 1 point of Strength, it can manipulate objects.
b. If the creature cannot manipulate objects, it has 0 Strength.

As written, the line does not preclude the existence of a creature with 10 Strength who cannot manipulate objects.

-Hyp.

Uh?

I think i didn't understand you.

1)If the creature can manipulate objects, it has at least 1 point of strenght.

This is clear.

IMHO this sentence implies that:

If a creature can't manipulate objects, it hasn't at least 1 point of strenght.

Edit:would you say that a dead creature, that can't phisically manipulate objects,would have a Str score?!?

 

[Methos of Aundair]

Edit:would you say that a dead creature, that can't phisically manipulate objects,would have a Str score?!?

Why not? Say you have a creature who is petrified, doesn’t he still have a Strength score of at least 1? Since he is petrified he cannot manipulate objects, but that doesn’t mean his strength score is now 0. What about someone who is asleep? Technically they can’t manipulate objects, is their strength score effectively a 0? Why can’t a dead creature have a strength score of at least 1? I see no reason why they couldn’t.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1)If the creature can manipulate objects, it has at least 1 point of strenght.

This is clear.

IMHO this sentence implies that:

If a creature can't manipulate objects, it hasn't at least 1 point of strenght.

No, it doesn't. It implies that if a creature hasn't at least 1 point of Strength, it can't manipluate objects. That's not the same.

Let's take the statement "If the creature is a dog, it has four legs."

You're saying that this implies "If the creature isn't a dog, it doesn't have four legs."

But it doesn't imply this at all. Since cats have four legs, we know it's false.

What it does imply is "If the creature doesn't have four legs, it isn't a dog."

Which is true (barring injury or birth defect, obviously).

-Hyp.

 

[Egres]

Why not? Say you have a creature who is petrified, doesn’t he still have a Strength score of at least 1? Since he is petrified he cannot manipulate objects, but that doesn’t mean his strength score is now 0. What about someone who is asleep? Technically they can’t manipulate objects, is their strength score effectively a 0? Why can’t a dead creature have a strength score of at least 1? I see no reason why they couldn’t.

?
A dead creature has a Dex score of 0 cause it can't move.

Why should it have a Str score,if it can't phisically manipulate anything?

I have understood the Hypersmurf reply (note:my question was VERY stupid,but it's 4.58 AM here,i'm a bit tired...), but i stil can't understand why an helpless cha. would have a Dex score of 0,but a Str score of 10.

It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Hypersmurf]

but i stil can't understand why an helpless cha. would have a Dex score of 0,but a Str score of 10.

Because the helpless condition states that Dex is considered 0, and says nothing about Str.

-Hyp.