Juggernaut..resurrected?

[Egres]

Because the helpless condition states that Dex is considered 0, and says nothing about Str.

-Hyp.

Yeah,and just to go against myself,this way showing that i really like to seek the truth and not to "win",i think that perhaps the creature Dex isn't 0.

In fact the SRD states:

A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).

But we aren't talking about helpless creatures here.

I asked for dead creatures.

If they can't react at all (unless someone is going to say that they can act in any phisical way), i just can't understand how they could have any Str score.


But,just another question (particularly for Caliban and you Hypersmurf):what do you think about the lose-prerequisite-lose-class features thing ?

I mean,if we can find a way to get the Str score of the Juggernaut( a living one in this example) below 13,would it lose its class features if we use the CW page 16 rule for you?

 

[reiella]

There are many ways to become unable to "perform actions", beyond simply hitting a 0 point in an ability score. And while it might be fun to extrapolate that being dazed or dying should reduce the character's strength to zero and somehow become an object because they can't take action. It's not really too reasonable.

Also interestingly enough, if you read Hypersmurf's other comments on this thread, in 3.5 there is nothing to restrict a dead critter from actually acting.

Typically, I ignore any attempts at rules obfuscation that occur as a result of splat books. They try to clarify, and ultimately end up just confusing the matter further with nonsensical versions that conflict with usually itself, the RAW, and common sense (The silliness of Complete Divine and 'the soul' being a good example there of).

However, for this instance, loss of strength would not precipitate a loss of requirement. You still have the feat in question, you just can't use it. Unless the prestige class in question has an ability score requirement (very rare) this becomes moot. The requirement rule primarily is for alignment restrictions, virtual feats, and magical qualification (ie, requirement Cleave feat, and you have a weapon that grants you the Cleave feat while you wield it).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I mean,if we can find a way to get the Str score of the Juggernaut( a living one in this example) below 13,would it lose its class features if we use the CW page 16 rule for you?

When you lose the prerequisites for a feat, you don't lose the feat; you simply can't use it.

It's like someone wearing heavy armor can use Whirlwind Attack. He can't use Spring Attack, but he still has the feat.

So someone with Power Attack whose Str is dropped to 12 can't use Power Attack, but they still have the feat, and therefore retain class features of a PrC whose requirements include the Power Attack feat.

On the other hand, let's say we have a Chaotic Evil Wizard/Blackguard/Arcane Trickster. He needs +2d6 Sneak Attack to qualify for AT; he needs to be Evil to qualify for BG.

If his alignment changes to non-Evil, he loses all class features of Blackguard... which includes his sneak attack, so he also loses all class features of Arcane Trickster. If he becomes evil again, he regains his Blackguard features... which lets him regain his Arcane Trickster features.

-Hyp.

 

[Egres]

True.

So the only way lies in the Dead creature matter.

Does it retain its class features?Mah. :\

Would a dead blackguard still radiate its Aura of Despair ?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So the only way lies in the Dead creature matter.

Does it retain its class features?Mah. :\

Do a dead Dragon Disciple's wings disappear?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Choosing to be a willing target is not an action, and can be done on someone else's turn.

Lowering SR is a standard action, and can only be performed on your turn.

So at the instant the Raise Dead spell goes off, their SR is still up, since they didn't lower it on their turn. (If anything, it's the surprise round.) And by the time their turn comes around, the spell has already either beaten their SR and succeeded, or it's failed... so lowering their SR at that point is futile.

-Hyp.

Are you really saying that you would force a PC with SR to fail an SR check before they could be raised?

In any case, it takes a full minute to cast raise dead. Plenty of time to contact the soul of the dead creature (as part of the casting of the spell) and give them the option of lowering their spell resistance before the final spell effect brings them back.

 

[Caliban]

Help me Caliban:if you say that the Str score would be 0,the dead creature would no longer qualify for the Power Attack feat,isn't it?

And then it would lose access to the Juggernaut PrC, that requires the Power Attack feat as a prerequisite.

And then the dead (now only a) Warforged would lose its Healing Immunity class feature,and then we would have no problem resurrecting it.

Did i miss something?

Yeah.

1) I never said their scores were actually reduced to 0. Just effectively 0, just as your Dex is effectively 0 when you are helpless.

2) If your strength goes below 13 you don't lose the Power Attack feat, you just can't use it.

3) A dead warforged doesn't lose it's Immunity to Healing. Nowhere does it state that being alive is a requirement of the class feature.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are you really saying that you would force a PC with SR to fail an SR check before they could be raised?

It does say Spell Resistance: Yes...

In any case, it takes a full minute to cast raise dead.

That's right.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1- round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

You don't select the target of the spell until the end of that minute.

Plenty of time to contact the soul of the dead creature (as part of the casting of the spell) and give them the option of lowering their spell resistance before the final spell effect brings them back.

Nope - the target hasn't been selected until the minute's up, and the spell comes into effect. They aren't contacted until the spell hits.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

It does say Spell Resistance: Yes...

Glad I don't play with you then. If you're going to literally rules lawyer someone into permanent death...

 

[Caliban]

Nope - the target hasn't been selected until the minute's up, and the spell comes into effect. They aren't contacted until the spell hits.

-Hyp.

It never says that they aren't contacted until the spell hits. They just aren't raised from the dead until the spell hits.

Also, you can choose the target before the spell comes into effect if you want. You just aren't required to.