Jumping on a monster's back
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
qstor said:
The feat mentions entering the square specifically, so I probably should have included that in my synopsis. With nothing saying that the normal AoO is not available, I would expect it to be.
[Edit: Of course, since the general rule is that a creature cannot enter the space of an enemy creature, there IS NO general rule for such causing AoOs. However, the Bull Rush action (which requires entering a space) does trigger an AoO for entering an enemy's space, as does the entry of a very small creature (Fine, Diminutive, Tiny) into a larger creature's space. ]
I think Ride is inappropriate; the tasks under Ride are generally about controlling an animal trained to bear a rider, not a sentient creature unwilling to do the same (if likened to handling a bucking, untrained mount, I would consider that more Handle Animal, but YMMV). The opposed Grapple/Climb is what the feat specifies, anyway.
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Whimsical said:
That's very much in the area of "DM must make a call".
If I did not know of the Complete Warrior method, I would probably make a spot decision to use Ride vs the mount's attack or a fixed DC based on the tasks for Ride (something like 25, probably). I would probably not have considered using Grapple, and still would not now, as the mount is not trying to reach around and pull you off, which is what is implied in the Climb Aboard description.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Normally you can't grapple something two size classes larger than yourself, right?
But, there are monsters, like the Stirge, that basically 'jump on the back' of the character they attack. I'd look at the mechanics of Tiny critters like that attacking PCs, for guidance, in handling Medium PCs trying to climb onto Huge+ monsters...
Or, it could work something like Improved Grab, in reverse....
Off the top of my head, I might run it something like this:
1) The monster in question must /not/ have Improved Grab
2) The PC must be plausibly able to reach some part of the monster's body that it can't easily reach with it's usual attacks, itself (comparable to latching onto the mid-back of a human).
3) The PC weathers any AoOs for closing with the monster.
4) The PC starts a grapple (could be another AoO) there.
5) You make a grapple check with the monster taking a -20 as if it had Improved Grab. If the PC wins, he's 'riding' the monster. If he succeeds in 'pinning' the monster he has climbed into a position in which the monster can't attack him at all.
The 'rider' interacts with the monster as if he were in a grapple with it, in all ways, but the monster isn't otherwise considered to be in a grapple (much as if it had Improved Grab). The monster must succeed in 'leaving the grapple' with a -20 to it's grapple checks, to dislodge the character. Or, the monster can enter a full-fledged grapple with the character, negating the -20 penalty, but it then counts as being in a grapple.
But, there are monsters, like the Stirge, that basically 'jump on the back' of the character they attack. I'd look at the mechanics of Tiny critters like that attacking PCs, for guidance, in handling Medium PCs trying to climb onto Huge+ monsters...
Or, it could work something like Improved Grab, in reverse....
Off the top of my head, I might run it something like this:
1) The monster in question must /not/ have Improved Grab
2) The PC must be plausibly able to reach some part of the monster's body that it can't easily reach with it's usual attacks, itself (comparable to latching onto the mid-back of a human).
3) The PC weathers any AoOs for closing with the monster.
4) The PC starts a grapple (could be another AoO) there.
5) You make a grapple check with the monster taking a -20 as if it had Improved Grab. If the PC wins, he's 'riding' the monster. If he succeeds in 'pinning' the monster he has climbed into a position in which the monster can't attack him at all.
The 'rider' interacts with the monster as if he were in a grapple with it, in all ways, but the monster isn't otherwise considered to be in a grapple (much as if it had Improved Grab). The monster must succeed in 'leaving the grapple' with a -20 to it's grapple checks, to dislodge the character. Or, the monster can enter a full-fledged grapple with the character, negating the -20 penalty, but it then counts as being in a grapple.
To keep it simple I would use the Climb Aboard ability from the Giantbane tactical feat but modified for not having the feat.
As Silveras posted:
The creature must be 2 or more sizes larger than you.
Move next to it, then next round make a DC 10 Climb check to get aboard.
Creature suffers -4 penalty to hit you because of the awkward position.
If it moves, you go with it.
It can make a Grapple check opposed by your Climb to shake you off.
For those without the feat, I would make the Climb check DC 15, and you provoke an AOO for climbing up in addition to moving close enough to be able to climb. The penalty to hit you is only -2 as you are not as skilled in positioning yourself. In addition the climbing character would loose his Dexterity bonus to AC and any Shield bonus, because he is considered to be Climbing as per the Climb skill description.
As Silveras posted:
The creature must be 2 or more sizes larger than you.
Move next to it, then next round make a DC 10 Climb check to get aboard.
Creature suffers -4 penalty to hit you because of the awkward position.
If it moves, you go with it.
It can make a Grapple check opposed by your Climb to shake you off.
For those without the feat, I would make the Climb check DC 15, and you provoke an AOO for climbing up in addition to moving close enough to be able to climb. The penalty to hit you is only -2 as you are not as skilled in positioning yourself. In addition the climbing character would loose his Dexterity bonus to AC and any Shield bonus, because he is considered to be Climbing as per the Climb skill description.
