Jumping over another character, rules please?

[Remathilis]

Ok, according to 3.5 RAW, how would I do this?

An elf rogue is watching his human fighter friend go toe-to-toe with an orc. The rogue is behind is friend, and wishes to run, jump over both the fighter and the orc, and set himself up for a sneak attack (in the same round if possible).

Notes:
* The rogue can hit a jump DC 30 with no sweat. His movement rate is 30 ft.
* The rogue has tumble and moblity.

Now here is the questions.

* What DC does he need to hit to jump both the orc and the fighter? Is this a long jump or a standing jump.
* Does this provoke an AoO from the Orc?
* How much movement does he need to make the jump (assuming he needs 20 ft to run.)
* Can he make an attack after the jump?
* If he cannot, what skills/feats/magic items would he need to do so?

Thanks

 

[Celebrim]

Ok, according to 3.5 RAW, how would I do this?

An elf rogue is watching his human fighter friend go toe-to-toe with an orc. The rogue is behind is friend, and wishes to run, jump over both the fighter and the orc, and set himself up for a sneak attack (in the same round if possible).

Notes:
* The rogue can hit a jump DC 30 with no sweat. His movement rate is 30 ft.
* The rogue has tumble and moblity.

Now here is the questions.

* What DC does he need to hit to jump both the orc and the fighter? Is this a long jump or a standing jump.
* Does this provoke an AoO from the Orc?
* How much movement does he need to make the jump (assuming he needs 20 ft to run.)
* Can he make an attack after the jump?
* If he cannot, what skills/feats/magic items would he need to do so?

Thanks

This answer has gotten complex enough, it needs section headings in order to follow.

INTRODUCTION

The rogue can go one of two ways. Either he can jump over the group and clear it by at least 5' to avoid moving through the threatened space above the orcs head, or he tumble through the space that the orc is in without jumping.

JUMP BASICS

To do the jump, the rogue needs to clear 15' of distance and 10' of height. Height is the big constraint here. To clear that much heigh, the rogue needs a jump check that would allow them to clear at least 40', because jumps only go 25% as high as they cover. Assuming the rogue gets a 20' running start, the rogue needs to hit a DC 40. Without a running start, the jump is DC 80. Either way, because the jump's maximum height is halfway through it, the character would need to take off 20' in front of the orc.

Strictly according to the rules, the player must cover 40' of distance jumping + 20' of running start, during his move action in order to obtain the necessary height. He can do both these things as part of a double move action and still finish on the ground, but he'll land 20' on the other side of the orc, and need to move back to attack next round.

With a standing jump (80 DC remember), the player only covers 40' of distance during his move, and then can use the rest of his second move to cover the other 20' back to the orc. Since this is 40' of move + 20' of the move, the character lands and then gets back into position to flank in the same round but still can't attack until next round.

HYPOTHETICAL JUMP

So far, everything is clear. But now, we get into interpretation issues. Suppose the player wants to know what the DC is for a jump that ONLY covers 10' of height and 15' of distance. That would seem obvious, but the rules actually provide no explicit guidance that I can see. If you think is is wierd, you wouldn't be alone. Arguably then, under the RAW this can't be done, even though it would seem to be easier to do a standing jump covering 10' of height and 15' of distance than a standing jump covering 10' of height and 40' of distance.

There are several possible solutions and I won't pretend that only one of them is right. Untimately, you are going to have to fudge a DC by some method, and hopefully that method proves good enough that you can stick to it. One method that should generate good numbers is adding the DC of the distance to the DC of the height. In this case, that would be DC 55 for a running jump and DC 110 for a standing jump. That's a good firm number in that the system will never be busted (the DC's will always be adequately hard for the feat to be accomplished), but arguably its a bit too harsh and it still has the the problem that its easier to jump 10' + 40' than 10' + 15'. My gut feeling is that those numbers are about twice as hard as they should be, so I would add half the DC of the distance + half the DC of the height.* That would mean a running jump DC of 28 and a standing jump DC of 55. If your PC has a move of 35' or better, they can jump over the combat and make a sneak attack in the same round with a DC 28 jump check, or if the PC has a move of 30' or less, they can jump over the combat and make a sneak attack in the same round with a DC 55 jump check.

PRICE OF FAILURE

Now, what are we going to do if we miss the DC. Assuming the case of the normal SRD jump, for each point you miss the DC by, you go 1' shorter and 1/4' less high. I haven't given the character ANY wiggle room so if you miss the DC by even one point, you descend into the Orc's threatened square and draw an attack of oppurtunity as you jump over head. The SRD gives no guidance on this that I see, but I would rule that a character that was in mid-jump was flat-footed because you are basically helpless to dodge. Note that the character would lose his dodge bonus bonus from Mobility under this ruling (obviously, you can't dance around mid-air unless you have a fly speed). If you fail the check by 15 or more, you plow into (or through) the orc (still drawing the AoO as you do). Again, the rules don't offer alot of explicit guidance on landing in an obstructed space that I can see, so here we are going to get really far out. If the orc is not flat footed with respect you, he can choose to avoid you. If not, he can make a trip attack on you as you enter his square. If he does though, you automatically get to make a trip attack on him. One or both of you may fall prone in the square. Even if you don't get 'tripped', you still have to make an obstructed landing. Make a DC 25 tumble check or end up prone in the square you would have landed in if you hadn't had an orc in your way. After all this is resolved, I'd give 1d6 non-lethal damage to anyone that was prone by way of modeling the impact.

THE EASIER ALTERNATIVE

The other way to do this is alot easier. Simply make a DC 25 tumble check to pass through the orcs space without drawing an AoO. Then turn around and make your sneak attack. Note however that many groups prefer to use an opposed check on tumbles through an enemies space to the flat Dc of the SRD, because its the exact DC to tumble through the space of the parties 20th level fighter as it is through the space of an orc.

FOOTNOTES CONCERNING HYPOTHETICAL JUMPS

* UPDATE: This is only a rough number, but now that I've had some time to think about it, it works out pretty well. If we use the same rule to reverse engineer the DC's of various long jumps you get numbers your numbers back. For instance:

20' long jump (5' high) would work out to DC 20. It's DC 20 normally
30' long jump (7.5' high) would work out to DC 30. It's DC 30 normally.
40' long jump (10' high) would work out to DC 40. It's DC 40 normally.

One thing I wouldn't allow is a jump that was 'flatter' than normal at a lower DC. If a character wanted to jump say 40' but only 5' high (perhaps to avoid hitting the ceiling), I'd make the difficulty equal to jumping the same distance higher. In this case, the 40' jump that's 5' high would be the same DC as a 40' jump 15' high, which is DC 50. It's harder to do flat trajectory jumps than normal trajectory jumps.

The other thing that I'd watch for is jumps which are higher than they are long. If a character wants to jump higher than his distance, use the above method or the high jump DC which ever is higher. For instance, using the above method, a 40' high jump that covers 5' is DC 83. But normally, its takes a DC 160 jump to jump up 40' straight up. Use the higher number.

 

[Whimsical]

Or you can choose to eat an AoO and only jump 20' forward and 5' high. DC 20 running long jump which uses 40' of movement. Or DC 40 standing long jump which only uses 20' of movement.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

An elf rogue is watching his human fighter friend go toe-to-toe with an orc. The rogue is behind is friend, and wishes to run, jump over both the fighter and the orc, and set himself up for a sneak attack (in the same round if possible).

Ok ...

Notes:
* The rogue can hit a jump DC 30 with no sweat. His movement rate is 30 ft.
* The rogue has tumble and moblity.

Now here is the questions.

* What DC does he need to hit to jump both the orc and the fighter? Is this a long jump or a standing jump.

I believe you mean "Is this a long jump or a high jump?" This is going to be a long jump. A high jump is really more reaching up to grab something than attempting to move across the ground.

So, we'll assume that the fighter an the orc are both 6' tall. That means, at the height of his jump, the rogue has to clear 7' or 8' (in order to not run into the fighter or the orc).*

When long jumping, you clear 1/4 of the distance jumped at the midpoint of your jump. Therefore, you need to jump 28 feet (to clear 7' in the middle). A running long jump of 28' - 30' to make it fit to D&D squares - has a DC of 30. Looks like your rogue is in luck!

Note that he would need 20' of "running-up" space, and would need 30' between where he takes off and where he is expected to land. Accordingly, he'll need to start 35' behind the fighter, and he'll land 15' behind the orc.

Since his speed is 30', he can possibly do this all in one round, if he doesn't require any significant maneuvering to get into place for his run-up. If he can't do this all in one round, keep in mind that the character "hangs" in midair until his next initiative count, at which point he needs to take at least a single move action to complete the jump.

For instance, assume he needs to move 20' to get to his initial running point. He then runs up the 20' to his launching point, and has moved 40' so far this round. He then jumps, and hits DC 35 - which is good, because he needs to beat 30'. However, he can only move 20' into the jump before his movement for the round runs out.

Remember, he started 15' behind the fighter, so a 20' jump puts him at 8 feet in the air, hovering over the orc.

However, we'll assume that, for the moment, he is in the perfect starting position, and can begin his run-up immediately.

First, he runs up to his launching point, taking 20' of movement. He then jumps, and hits the required DC. Accordingly, he clears 30', passing over the orc and his ally, and lands 15' behind the orc. With a speed of 30', he can move up to 60' in a round. That gives him just enough movement to move 10' towards the orc, ending in threatening and flanking position.

* Does this provoke an AoO from the Orc?

Yes. He most definately passes through the orc's threatened area. I don't believe you can Tumble while jumping, so he doesn't have an opportunity to avoid the AoO. Any bonuses he has from, say, Mobility, would still apply, however.

* How much movement does he need to make the jump (assuming he needs 20 ft to run.)

See above.

* Can he make an attack after the jump?

In this case, no, he could not.

* If he cannot, what skills/feats/magic items would he need to do so?

There are a couple of ways he could make an attack after this jump.

First, if he can clear the distance in a single move action (like a standing long jump [DC 60] from the perfect leaping-off point).

Second, if he can clear *most* of the distance in a single move action, then it's possible that he can get a Spring Attack in while he's moving past the orc.

Third, if he can get his speed high enough, he can make options 1 or 2 much easier.

Thanks

Welcome! I hope this helps!

* Note: If he wanted to clear the orc's threatened area, as well, he'd need to clear not only the orc's head, but also the 5' worth of reach. Accordingly, he'd need to be ~10' at the top of his jump, which means a 40' long jump.

 

[Whimsical]

Your space and reach is three dimentional. So, a medium creature's space is 5' cube and he can threaten all of the 5' cubes around him, including the corner cubes.

Sometimes, I turn the scene "on it's side" and lay the minatures sideways against the battlemat with thier bases lined up on a line that represents the ground. It helps a lot, especially when determining where area of effects go and where someone can reach.

 

[blargney the second]

If I were the rogue's player, I'd tumble up my fighter buddy and jump from his shoulders over the orc's head.

-blarg

 

[Nyarlathotep]

If I were the rogue's player, I'd tumble up my fighter buddy and jump from his shoulders over the orc's head.

-blarg

Or just tumble through the fighter's square and the orc's square.

 

[kjenks]

I don't believe you can Tumble while jumping, so he doesn't have an opportunity to avoid the AoO.

That depends on what you consider "normal movement."

The SRD says it's a DC 15 check to "Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally."

So ya gotta ask your DM what he considers to be "normal movement" because it's not really defined in the rules. The Main 3.5e FAQ has some hints.

Can a character use the Tumble skill from a prone
position? Specifically, if my character is prone, can he use
Tumble to move out of a threatened square without
provoking an attack of opportunity?

According to a strict reading of the rules, no. The key
phrase in the Tumble skill description is this: “Tumble at one-half
speed as part of normal movement. . . .” You can’t move
“normally” while prone, thus you can’t use Tumble in this
manner while prone.

The only “normal” movement allowed while prone is to
crawl 5 feet as a move action that provokes attacks of
opportunity. [...]

Can prone characters move? The rules on crawling
would obviously apply here, but this question also includes
things like limbless creatures and oozes. Can a creature
tumble while prone? Can he tumble to get out of the
threatened area? How fast would he move? You can tumble
as part of normal movement. What is a “normal move”
anyway?

If a creature has no motive limbs, you move at your normal
speed when prone, otherwise you must crawl or tumble.
There’s no game definition of the term “normal move” but the
rules use it as shorthand for using a move action to travel up to
your speed (as opposed to using a skill such as Climb or
Swim). Crawling isn’t “normal movement,” but tumbling is the
art of moving with acrobatic skill, and there’s no reason why a
prone tumbler couldn’t artfully roll away from a foe.

So it looks to me like you can Tumble while using the Jump skill. But many people disregard the FAQ because it's internally inconsistent and it disagrees with the Core rules in many places, so ask your DM.

And to answer your original question, the rogue could make a Jump check to pass through the squares (cubes, really) above the fighter and orc, using Tumble (DC 15) to avoid the AoO from the orc.

If the rogue begins his movement immediately behind the fighter, he'd have to choose to make a standing jump or move away from the fighter then run up before making his jump.

For a running jump, the rogue would need to determine which square he'd start his jump in then move WAY back so he can run 20 ft. to that square. Since the rogue wants to clear 5 ft. height in the middle of his jump, he'd need to jump a horizontal distance of 20 ft. "At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance."

So let's start our rogue, fighter and orc in a 5-ft.-wide corridor. The rogue is in square A6, the fighter in A7, the orc in A8. The rogue wants the midpoint of his jump to be in A8, so he needs to begin his jump from square A5 or A6, landing in A9 or A10. So the rogue moves back to A2 (using up four squares of movement), then he reverses direction and moves quickly back to A6 to get his "running start." (This isn't actually the full-round Run maneuver where he loses his Dex bonus to AC, it's just moving quickly.) He begins his 20-ft. jump in A6 and lands in A10 (using up four more squares of movement). During his jump, as he leaves square A7, he provokes an AoO from the orc unless he makes a Tumble check, DC 15. After he lands in A10, he can use 5 ft. more of movement (one more square, for nine squares total) to move back to A9 so he's in a flanking position. Since nine squares of movement is more than a single move but less than a double move, the rogue can do all of this in one full round.

If he rolls less than 20 total on his Jump check, he lands short, which may cause him all sorts of trouble, depending on how low he rolls. If he gets a Jump total of less than 5, he never leaves his starting square (A6). If he gets 5-9, he would land in the fighter's square, in which case the rogue moves from A7 to the nearest legal square, A6, provoking an AoO from the orc unless the rogue makes a DC 15 Tumble check. If he gets 10-14, he lands in the orc's square, A8, and he moves to the nearest legal square, A9, again provoking an AoO from the orc unless the rogue makes a DC 15 Tumble check.

(Notice that accidentally missing this DC 20 Jump check by up to 10 is actually more beneficial than making it because the rogue gets into square A9 anyway with less movement.)

However, after all this movement, from A6 to A2, back to A6 then leaping, the elf rogue would have used up more than a single move action so he could not attack in the same round.

If the makes a standing jump, "If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled." In this case, starting in A6, jumping to A9, the normal DC is 15, doubled to DC 30. Again, if the rogue lands short, he must move to the nearest legal square. This would only require three squares of movement, allowing your elf rogue a standard action, too, so he could jump and attack.

 

[iwatt]

Actually, what you need to know is wether you want moves like this in your game. If the answer is yes, you should allow the player to clear 5' vertically and allow him to tumble in the air through a certain area using a DC modifier (+5 maybe).

If you don't want these moves, you should amp up the DCs as you see fit. For example, use the RAW exemplified in the first response (DC 50 usually means NO in my book).


By the way Celebrim, I liked the 50% long DC + 50% high DC HR. makes sense. And you're right that it can get abused if you're not careful. But that goes with almost everything in the game .

 

[werk]

Or just tumble through the fighter's square and the orc's square.

That's what I was going to say