Jumping over Opponents

[Vaslov]

CapnZapp, I agree that a static DC doesn't make sense. If I recall the rule correctly it was a base 15 with modifiers as the DM sees fit. Tumbling by Tiamat should be an epic skill check while leaping over an unconscious halfling while standing on a chair should be quite simple.

davinei4c, that great leap approach is something I contemplated. I might switch over to it with power changes later on just to try it out after reading your post. Glad to hear it is working well as it read! I also completely agree with your comments on having other goons around the guy in the rear. Rogue's can hit hard, but they can't take it. A few guards in the rear changes my tactics quite a bit until a defender can get back there with me. Luckily the character's sister is a swordmage with that switch place power. Oh the number of bad spots I'll be leaving her in....

Vaslov

 

[CapnZapp]

CapnZapp, I agree that a static DC doesn't make sense. If I recall the rule correctly it was a base 15 with modifiers as the DM sees fit. Tumbling by Tiamat should be an epic skill check while leaping over an unconscious halfling while standing on a chair should be quite simple.

Thanks for providing a voice of reason, Vaslov!

My beef is that saying "it says the DM can modify as he sees fit" is a weak argument. Where else in the history of D&D (since 3E) has an important DC been left up to the DM to decide...?

(If you're wondering what my ideal would be, I would much rather have the skill description say something clearly defined and easy to apply such as "DC = 15 + (monster's half level) + 2 per (difference in size category)". That would neatly restore "jump past enemy" to all the other abilities and powers, where DCs are tightly proscribed by the game.

My example was just that, but the numbers do come out nicely:
Level One Halfling = 15 + 0 + (-1)x2 = 13
Level Thirty Dragon = 15 + 15 + 5x2 = 40

The game specifies exact numbers in so many other situations, it's silly to leave a major ability* such as this completely wayward.
* You can jump past an enemy, for frak's sake! That's possibly an encounter-saving ability! DC 15 is trivial as soon as you have left the lowest levels - I can't wrap my head around the idea that its effectively impossible to stop your foes from jumping past you - at their leasure! That's utterly preposterous!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

???

Looks like Vaslov and CapnZapp have me on thier ignore list ...

Cool! I didn't think I had been abrasive enough around here!

 

[CapnZapp]

Looks like Vaslov and CapnZapp have me on thier ignore list ...

Hate to disappoint, but why would I put you up on ignore...?

 

[Vaslov]

I didn't comment much on the proper DC calc as I didn't have the books with me and could not remember what it said. I was hoping I could find something more detailed, but alas I had no such luck. It is quite vague.

The 1/2 level rule as you suggest is a good rule of thumb or using the dc's on pg 42 as suggested by ... hmm. Can't remember his name. The DC's come out to just about the same.

Vaslov

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Darn, and I have been trying so very hard!

I suppose I should have typed up the appropriate text block:

[sblock]Other Checks: If the action is related to a skill (Acrobatics and Athletics cover a lot of the stunts characters try in combat), use that check. If it is not an obvious skill or attack roll, use an ability check. Consult the
Difficulty Class and Damage by Level table below, and set the DC according to whether you think the task should be easy, hard, or somewhere in between. A quick rule of thumb is to start with a DC of 10 (easy),
15 (moderate), or 20 (hard) and add one-half the character’s level.[/sblock]

 

[Bayuer]

Acrobatic stunt is nice and very cinematic solution, but jumping is already covered by the rules in Athletic skill description so I don't know why is this problem. Giving player ability to not provoke OA by this action is to powerfull couse thers no such a things (tumble is encounter power for rogues and it only allow shift). So roll Athletic, mesure distance provoke OA and you got all you wanted.

 

[CapnZapp]

@Bayuer: Not really. The introductory sentence of the Acrobatics skill description reads (my emphasis):

Make an Acrobatics check to swing from a chandelier, somersault over an opponent, slide down a staircase on your shield, or attempt any other acrobatic stunt that you can imagine and that your DM agrees to let you try.

So if your suggestion is to outlaw this usage of Acrobatics, with the intention to direct characters to the Athletics skill;
1) it would have to be a house-rule, much like the DC changes discussed
2) it would change the subset of characters who could pull of the stunt

 

[CapnZapp]

@Primitive Screwhead: I could be wrong, but perhaps you're saying the DM should use the "Actions the Rules Don't Cover" guidelines (DMG p42)?

Well, like with Bayuer's post, this ignores the fact that the Acrobatics skill description already contains fully stand-alone directives on how to use the skill.

Sure, you could use those guidelines, but that'd be a house-rule.

I do not believe that is what was meant all along. And if it was, I'd criticize the skill entry for being incomplete: why point to a table in the DMG when all you need is some simple instructions - in fact, the very same instructions that are given for many other skill uses!

No, as I read it, it's hard to ignore the fact that for this skill usage alone, the simple text "+ one-half the monster's level" does not appear.

I read this to mean that the DC is meant to be static in the general case. (The existence of the "The DM sets the DC based on the complexity
of the stunt and the danger of the situation." text doesn't change this. This only reflects the impossibility of trying to cover all bases)

---

With that aside, my comment on your actual suggestion:

I personally believe the "Actions the Rules Don't Cover" should be reserved for less commonly occuring cases. In the case of getting past enemies through Acrobatic Stunts (a very useful move I predict is getting use all the time) I prefer something simpler for the general case*.

Such as DC = 15 + one-half the monster's level.


Cheers, Z

*) When you're "only" trying to somersault past a monster, with no complications (like difficult terrain, monsters tightly bunched or in a formation/stance specifically geared towards preventing anyone from getting past, narrow walls or low ceiling etc)

 

[LostSoul]

I personally believe the "Actions the Rules Don't Cover" should be reserved for less commonly occuring cases. In the case of getting past enemies through Acrobatic Stunts (a very useful move I predict is getting use all the time) I prefer something simpler for the general case*.

Such as DC = 15 + one-half the monster's level.

Something simpler is to use the monster's Ref defense. This works out to DC 12 + the monster's level, more or less.