Jumping while Charging?

[Judas]

I'm in the charge while jumping group. I think by the RAW it's supported, but even more importantly, it's allowed due to it's coolness. A +2 to attack for a -2 to AC is no big deal. But having the Dwarf slam his hammer on the head of the wizard slinging spells on the other side of a 10' pit is just too cool not to use. IMC, I encourage acrobatics. PC's Diving onto creatuers under them (and possibly missing ) is just too cool an action that it's worth reinforcing.

In this case, I wouldn'thave a problem because the obstacle is a lack of substance and not an object, but I would rule that there would need to be 10' between the caster and the edge of the pit so you can regain lost speed from the jump.

 

[iwatt]

In this case, I wouldn'thave a problem because the obstacle is a lack of substance and not an object, but I would rule that there would need to be 10' between the caster and the edge of the pit so you can regain lost speed from the jump.

methinks you're trying to apply to much real world to your DnD If I believe the jumping charge applies, it applies. If I believe it doesn't, it doesn't.

I try to avoid complicating the rules too much myself. Thankfully, my players don't think I'm out to get them (the fools ) so they trust me not to shaft them with ad hoc rulings. But that's our playing style.

 

[Judas]

Think how you want. The game is customizable. I wouldn't automatically allow something because it looks *cool*. Hell, I loved Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let the pc's run up walls and fight on bent bamboo reeds.

 

[ARandomGod]

Which Feat are you reffering to? Acrobatic Charge is a class ability, not a feat.

I wasn't referring to acrobatic charge as a feat, I was saying that there are feats out there that alter charge, and feats out there that give skills, and therefore skill can in some way be compared to feats.

Do you still believe you can jump within a charge?

Ah Ha! You have found (or pointed out) the actual heart of the issue. Jumping is part of a move action. Charging is a full round action, not a move action. You need a move action to jump, you don't have one if you're charging. Hence you cannot take that move action in the middle of your full round action.

That's a different point altogether, and it hits the actual heart of the matter.

Yes, I believe that if a charge included a move action you could jump as a part of a charge. But, assuming those quotes are correct (and I have no reason to believe that they are not), you can't take a move action and charge.

On the other hand, to answer your "and even if it was":

And even if it was, let's say you need to jump over a 5'x5'x3' table. The height at the apex of your needs to be a bit higher than the height of the table. You would need to clear about 5' at your apex so your feet would clear the edges of the table. Now, the height you achive is one quarter of the distance, so 5'x4 = 20' distance needed to be jumped, which is also a DC20. So there's 20' of a standard characters 30' move. Now you only have 10' of movement before the jump, so you're not meeting the required 20' run, so your 20 DC is now 40 (And for our Dwarf fighter in armor, he has -6 movement penalty and whatever the armor check penalty is for the chosen armor). If you double move you can keep the DC 20, but then you just used your attack action to move, so you can't even attack now for this turn.

Do you still believe you can jump within a charge?

Ignoring the above fact, that charging is a full round action and that therefore you can't take a move action in it (like jump). Yes, I believe that you can. First of all, you shouldn't attempt this particular jump with that dwarf that you meantioned (without some really good modifiers, you could do a lesser jump perhaps). And try not to wear all that armor if you can help it. I advise you to go with catfolk, or something similiar. (40 base speed, you could also try something with a +4 to strength, which would have the same net effect on a jump). Then you should get boots of haste (add 30 to your base speed for the jump). It'd also be nice to have a few levels of monk (lets say ninth level for an additional 30 to base speed). That's a base speed of 70 above the normal 30. That gives a bonus of +24 to jump. Now for skills. Be sure to have at least 5 in tumble for that +2 synergy bonus (Hey, tumble's a great skill, max it!). And max out that jump skill at +13 for a ninth level character. That's +39 to your jump before you add in strength. Yea, even with a strength modifier of 0 I think you could make that DC 40 check. I personally wouldn't even bother to make the roll. And that's without special equipment for jumping. (Really, the boots of haste were bought for other reasons, this is just a nice synergy).

For more fun, buy a +10 to jump skills item. They're only 10, 000 gold. And try to have at least a decent strength, say +2? That'll yield a +51 to jump.

In this case, I wouldn'thave a problem because the obstacle is a lack of substance and not an object, but I would rule that there would need to be 10' between the caster and the edge of the pit so you can regain lost speed from the jump.

On the gripping hand, I peronally have to have a problem with it or allow it no matter what the obsticle is, be it a lack of or a presense of. It's still the same mechanic, and so would be allowed either way.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Ah Ha! You have found (or pointed out) the actual heart of the issue. Jumping is part of a move action. Charging is a full round action, not a move action. You need a move action to jump, you don't have one if you're charging. Hence you cannot take that move action in the middle of your full round action.

Wrong. The exact wording is:
"None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action."

"so it is part of a move action" DOES NOT RESTRICT IT TO BEING PART OF A MOVE ACTION. It merely says "because a move action is movement, and a jump check is part of movement, a jump check is part of a move action". It is not exclusive.

If it said merely "None. A jump check is part of a move action", then you would be correct.

but it doesn't. It says "None. A jump check is included in your movement". It then goes on to explain that it would therefore be part of a move action.

 

[ARandomGod]

Wrong. The exact wording is:
"None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action."

"so it is part of a move action" DOES NOT RESTRICT IT TO BEING PART OF A MOVE ACTION. It merely says "because a move action is movement, and a jump check is part of movement, a jump check is part of a move action". It is not exclusive.

If it said merely "None. A jump check is part of a move action", then you would be correct.

but it doesn't. It says "None. A jump check is included in your movement". It then goes on to explain that it would therefore be part of a move action.

Hrmmm... You're thoughts intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

By which I mean, I'm agreeing with you on this point... it does say that it's a part of movement, not that it's a part of the move action. Therefore moving it back into the realm of the allowable.

PS: I edited my above reply to include an answer to the "and even if it was" (allowed during a charge) while you were writing your response.

 

[Judas]

Oh, so now you want to bring in magic items. I was basing everything off of class ability and rules. The hell with bonus to jumping, just get a pair of flying boots and forever ignore jump checks alltogether.

 

[ARandomGod]

Oh, so now you want to bring in magic items. I was basing everything off of class ability and rules. The hell with bonus to jumping, just get a pair of flying boots and forever ignore jump checks alltogether.

But you can't *charge*. And that's the question being posed: "Can one jump during a charge?" (Wait, can you charge while flying? I don't know, never checked. But it's not really stretching the scenario that much to imagine boots of haste for a melee character. How many people are going to charge someone when they're completely naked?)

OK, fine, leave the boots out of it. That's still +27 to the jump check, naked, with a +0 to the relevant ability. It would still be possible to make a dc 40 jump check as meantioned in the above scenario. You'll have to roll a 13, so there's only a 40% chance of sucess. But that's much greater than 0%, and therefore firmly in the realm of possibility.

Sure, sure, I admit that it's not always *easy* to do. And if you fail the check you certainly can't. But I think that you can feel free to try. Besides, it doesn't have to be a 5 x5 table. It could be two foot high and it'd still stop a charge without a jump check. Which would mean it could stop a charge if a jump check can't compensate.
For that matter, as meantioned above, it could be 10 foot wide and 10 foot deep instead of 5 foot wide and 5 foot high. That'll stop a charge too. It's the same rule either way.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm in the charge while jumping group. I think by the RAW it's supported, but even more importantly, it's allowed due to it's coolness.

So why not allowing everyone to freely use Whirlwind attack because it's cool? By these line of reasoning, why can't a 5yrs old kid with a toy sword spin around? Everyone can make a 360degree turn in 6 six second with a stick stretched!

I think it makes very much more sense to make the ability of jumping as part of a charge/run a feat. If a feat is too costly for the benefit in one's opinion, merge it with Fleet of Foot, or otherwise give the feat another benefit or use.

 

[Bigwilly]

In 3.0 yes, in 3.5 probably not

Do you still believe you can jump within a charge?

This is what I hate about 3.0 to 3.5. All the little changes that combine to completely f*ck you up:

- Charge is now clearly described as a full round action (this is actually good), so our dwarf in plate mail can move up to 40' in a straight line and make a charge attack.
- Jump mechanics completely changed so he needs a 20' move (think this used be 10' but not sure), leaving only 20' of move left for jump. Jump is still part of movement, so it depends on whether on not you allow a jump as part of charge full round action (I do).
- Ring of jumping (and spell) nerfed. Ring of jumping 3.0 added a massive +30 to the jump check. Improved Ring of jumping 3.5 adds an underwhelming +10. Needless to say when I started this campaign in the 'old' days, the ring that the dwarf got gave a +30 bonus. I have not changed this so the dwarf still gets +30 on his jump checks.

Now for the jump calculation. The Dwarf has only 1 rank in jump but does have a +5 strength bonus. He takes a -6 armor check penalty (full plate) and another -6 because he only has 20' move, but then gets +30 from 3.0 ring of jumping for a total before rolling of 24. If he takes the 20' run up, he can clear 20' (DC20) without having to take a jump check and with an average roll can make 35' (DC35 and taking into account the fact that 3.0 jump spell also allowed you to jump further than you normally could. So IMC, I will allow him to continue to make jump-charges as much as he likes and as long as he makes the roll. In a 3.5 RAW campaign, he couldn't.

And as R and T from the three haligonians agreed, the image of a plate armored dwarf suddenly leaping across the room and planting his axe in some NPC's chest is just too cool not to allow it!

Bigwilly