D&D 5E June 27 Q&A: Modular Features, Paladin Alignment and Legendary Creatures

[DMZ2112]

Will they? What kind of true code would a chaotic good/neutral/evil paladin even follow? Better yet why would a chaotic character ever be bound by a code, isn't that a lawful behavior? And if he or she wouldn't, why can a chaotic character be a paladin (outside of the "because we dropped alignment restrictions" reason)?

If a player wants to play a chaotic paladin, it is up to him to devise a code that describes his character's ideals and that satisfies the dungeon master that the class' requirements have been met. If he cannot, that player will not be playing a paladin.

If this means that by your metric all paladins are lawful, then so be it. No one at your table will be playing a chaotic paladin. But for my part, if chaos were as simply defined as "effect without cause," all chaotic characters would be psychotic jesters.

 

[Imaro]

If a player wants to play a chaotic paladin, it is up to him to devise a code that describes his character's ideals and that satisfies the dungeon master that the class' requirements have been met. If he cannot, that player will not be playing a paladin.

If this means that by your metric all paladins are lawful, then so be it. No one at your table will be playing a chaotic paladin. But for my part, if chaos were as simply defined as "effect without cause," all chaotic characters would be psychotic jesters.

Emphasis mine... No, that would just be the chaotic evil Paladin...

Edit 1: On a more serious note... Chaotic at it's base definition, IMO, means not orderly, that said, I still have trouble seeing how someone who is "not orderly" would choose to follow and abide by a code (basically a set of orders they should follow) it would be against their nature.

Edit 2: I don't think the paladin's code is just a defining of one's ideals... those are your character's beliefs. A paladin's code on the other hand is supposed to be a restraint or defining of one's "acceptable" behavior.

 

[DMZ2112]

Emphasis mine... No, that would just be the chaotic evil Paladin...

On a more serious note... Chaotic at it's base definition, IMO, means not orderly, that said, I still have trouble seeing how someone who is "not orderly" would choose to follow and abide by a code (basically a set of orders they should follow) it would be against their nature.

I don't think starting a debate about the nature of alignment would serve this thread.

 

[Imaro]

I don't think starting a debate about the nature of alignment would serve this thread.

It's well within your right to respond or not respond but the fact that this thread is (at least partially) about the paladin and alignment restrictions... kinda presupposes that alignment will be brought up and discussed. Just saying.

 

[DMZ2112]

It's well within your right to respond or not respond but the fact that this thread is (at least partially) about the paladin and alignment restrictions... kinda presupposes that alignment will be brought up and discussed. Just saying.

This thread is about alignment being divorced from game mechanics and the effects of that decision, not how alignment will be defined in the new edition. The former is a topic on which I have said my piece. The latter is a can of worms I'm not willing to open.

 

[I'm A Banana]

While a Chaotic-type might not adhere to a "code" per se, they do have a governing philosophy and pattern of behavior. Like so. You can define things that are especially "Chaotic" or not. It's probably not written down and enforced by a hierarchy, but adopted voluntarily. Just because it is strict doesn't mean it's not Chaotic. A Chaotic person would recognize your freedom to not be Chaotic if you don't want to, but they probably wouldn't think you were making the BEST choice, and they'd encourage you to freely choose to be governed by free choice.

So it makes sense to talk about being strictly Chaotic, and upholding that as an ideal that one strives to become a paragon of (and can fail to be a paragon of, while still being that alignment). Chaotic can be limiting and confining, because you are forbidden form being orderly and inhibiting change. That's not always easy, and to be a paragon of Chaos is no less strict than to be a paragon of Law. In some ways, even more stringent: "I am bound by my free choice, which is more powerful than any chain of authority, because it is within myself, not external to it."

 

[Imaro]

While a Chaotic-type might not adhere to a "code" per se, they do have a governing philosophy and pattern of behavior. Like so. You can define things that are especially "Chaotic" or not. It's probably not written down and enforced by a hierarchy, but adopted voluntarily. Just because it is strict doesn't mean it's not Chaotic. A Chaotic person would recognize your freedom to not be Chaotic if you don't want to, but they probably wouldn't think you were making the BEST choice, and they'd encourage you to freely choose to be governed by free choice.

So it makes sense to talk about being strictly Chaotic, and upholding that as an ideal that one strives to become a paragon of (and can fail to be a paragon of, while still being that alignment). Chaotic can be limiting and confining, because you are forbidden form being orderly and inhibiting change. That's not always easy, and to be a paragon of Chaos is no less strict than to be a paragon of Law. In some ways, even more stringent: "I am bound by my free choice, which is more powerful than any chain of authority, because it is within myself, not external to it."

Hmmm, ok... so what behavior(s) do you think would cause a chaotic paladin to fall? Especially since he's about the free will.

 

[Doug McCrae]

A possible interpretation of paladinhood is that the paladin is the champion of a cause such as a belief system, a god, a religion, an organisation, or a race. One could do this in a chaotic or lawful manner. A chaotic paladin could operate alone or in small groups, have few personal rules (apart from his or her code), and pay no heed to most laws or authorities.

I agree that following a code is more lawful than chaotic but a chaotic person doesn't have to be 100% chaotic in everything they do. Alignment works best, I think, as a spectrum of behaviour. By this interpretation of paladins, they don't have to exemplify their own alignment, so a CN paladin isn't going to be the most chaotic being one could ever meet, but still falls within the CN range.

 

[Sonny]

It may be better if they just tie the Paladin to a type of Deity as opposed to an alignment. Much like the Cleric.

A Paladin of nature deities would be a Warden, those of Livegivers/Lightbringers may resemble the standard paladin, etc...

After all, a LG god of peace and a god of justice shouldn't have the same kind of Paladins. Alignment isn't the only way to define beliefs in the D&D world.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hmmm, ok... so what behavior(s) do you think would cause a chaotic paladin to fall? Especially since he's about the free will.

It does depend on specific circumstances, I think, much like a classical paladin (Is defying the church an act of Chaos or Evil? It depends....), but essentially, things that counter-act that freedom, for themselves, or others, or things that work against change. Preservation of the status quo is the CN "paladin's" version of worshiping a demon.

The site that I linked to has a really good overview of the kinds of actions that a CN character would forbid themselves to do, and I imagine a CN examplar would take those prohibitions more seriously than other CN characters (much the same way you can be Lawful Good without being a Paladin, and only one gets all crisis-y if they have to break a law).

Some examples might be:

• If you accept a knighthood/lordship/other position of authority.
• If you put down a rebellion.
• If you put someone else's feelings ahead of your own.
• If you support a king/emperor/president/police officer
• If you take prisoners.
• If you sign a contract.

I think we can all agree that, if the Chaotic alignment has much meaning, a character who did those kinds of things on a regular basis probably wouldn't rate as Chaotic. Which means that a CN exemplar would be especially sensitive to these actions (a normal CN character could probably do one or two of them on occasion without really risking anything), and may "fall" because the alignment energies they use to perform their semi-divine mystical abilities aren't as pure and heady for the character anymore.

And then fallen CN crusaders who TRULY abandon their worldview become unthinking, authoritarian, brainwashed LN automatons (the CN's version of the blackguard!).