Just bought Planescape and I, Tyrant...and now I need a pep talk

[Vindicator]

So I went down to my local used bookstore today and found two true gems: The AD&D 2e Beholder book I, TYRANT (nice pun on "Eye Tyrant", eh? Asimov would be proud...or he's turning over in his grave, one of the two ) and the PLANESCAPE campaign setting boxed set. Get this: both were in MINT condition. Even the friggin' BOX for Planescape was like new.

Damn, I love used book stores. But that's another thread.

Here's the problem: I went home and spent an hour or so reading through parts of I, TYRANT and the PLANESCAPE DM's Guide. And I found myself wondering, "Where is this kind of incredible, near-poetic flavor text in 3/3.5e? They've got our mechanics right, but where's our spirit?"

Kind of brought me back to the "Tastes Great! Less Filling!" commercials of the late 80s.

No question, 3/3.5 is simply magnificent in its mechanics and crunch. But when I read the stuff I bought today I found myself wondering if that's all that's left--mechanics. I have no memories of MANUAL OF THE PLANES for 3e...yet I read it cover to cover. But man, there are paragraphs I skimmed today in Planescape that I won't easily forget. "Exploring the skull of a dead god" is suggested as a typical adventure.

Did WotC fire all the poets and philosophers who wrote PLANESCAPE and I,TYRANT and replace them with accountants and computer programmers?

Help me, guys. Convince me that the flavor is still there. Explain to me why, when I read these two products from 2e, it felt like I was experiencing something I haven't in my 3/3.5 gaming. Convince me that 3/3.5 is not only less filling, but that it also tastes great.

DISCLAIMER: This is not a 2e vs. 3/3.5 thread! I played 1e back in the day, and dabbled with 2e a bit before taking an RPG sabbatical for several years. I love 3/3.5 but I'd also play 1e or 2e if asked. Hell, I just love D&D, period. DISCLAIMER OVER.

 

[Crothian]

The flavor you are talking about exists in settings. Planscape is a setting and the beholder book is a very thorogh look at a race. For a d20 comparison to that flavor wise I highly suggest U?nveiled MAsters, a mind flayer book put out by Paragon.

But mostly the flavor isn't there. I will say that you are loooking at two of the best books in terms of flavor second edition ever did. So, meeting the flavor of the cream of second edition would be tough to do. The complete books for instance ghave about as much flavor as any of the class books we have seen. The Green Ronin Race books though are great for that flavor feel. Bad Axe Games does the best job of having a book chalked full of rules, yet the flavor is there in a less obvious way. I mention these two as they are great flavor books.

Setting wise I place Slaine at the top flavor wise. Oathbound and Midnight are both great, but Slaine gets across a a much higher level of deatil in my eyes.

 

[Treebore]

You need to look at Oathbound, Midnight, Wilderlands, Erde, and the Kingdom of Kalamar materials. Oh, and FR is still as fluffy as ever.

Edit: Book of the Righteous by green Ronin, serious fluff of the religious variety in that book. Hardly any mechanics.

 

[Alzrius]

Vindicator, I wish I could do as you ask and tell you that 3(.5)E is all that and more...but I just can't.

The fact of the matter is, you're right. I've been saying pretty much the same thing since 3E came out - that while it's an incredible step forward in the actual mechanics, the style just doesn't seem as noticeable as 2E's was.

I personally believe that this is the downside to an "options, not restrictions" credo. The problem with said credo is that always making sure to rule nothing out means you never explore something too deeply - you're sacrificing the greater detail and intricacies of a single campaign (or product line) for the ability to cover all possibilities.

When you work within well-defined boundaries, its only natural that you'll delve deeper into the material that dwells within said boundaries, forcing you to flesh out the stuff you have more. This, in turn, stimulates new and exciting ways of using the material you have. The problem is that, as you go along, people who weren't there from the beginning feel intimidated about joining in, since, to get the full effect, they need to start from the beginning, and that's a lot of ground to cover...in essence, they have to get everything, or feel somewhat left out, and neither is an attractive package.

It was a desire to avoid that that has led WotC to work so hard to make sure nothing relies on anything else. While that has advantages, no one seems cognizant of what was lost in the process. 2E was the height of this sort of in-game intricacy, where the rules weren't able to be bent so easily, making it necessary for the plot itself to be both well-developed and interesting, not only for one product, but for all of a line of related products.

Losing that is the price we pay for having "options, not restrictions".

 

[DM_Jeff]

Flavor

>>Did WotC fire all the poets and philosophers who wrote PLANESCAPE and I,TYRANT and replace them with accountants and computer programmers?

No they hired them lock stock and barrel from TSR. THEN they fired them a couple years later. :\

I personally beleive the 'lack-o-flavor' thing that hit the CORE BOOKS for 3/3.5e is all part of the master plan Mr. Dancey and crew decided upon after the WotC massive, million-response survey of how folks play the D&D game before the relaunch. The majority of folks gave them the impression they didn't want to be told how to use the rules, just the rules. "Then I can use them to suit my game however I wish".

In a sense, I fear I may have been one who responded in such a fashion. I would frequently read a monster, or spell, or whatever back in the day and begin cultivating a plot in my head only to read on into the flavor text and find a bunch of restrictions, pre-set ideals and behaviour built into the damn thing derailing my imagination. Yes, I could always say "none of the flavor text is true in my games" but then the PCs won't even get to know everything if it's all changed, and a certain familarity with the fantasy RPG genre is a + to many gamers.

So yeah, while I too miss some of the WILDLY imaginative ideas and descriptions of Planescape, I actually prefer to see a cool monster nowadays and cook up a bizarre plot behind it, working with other beasties some might not expect and wielding an unusual weapon without being told I can't use it that way in flavor.

Also, Monte Cook is producing a 3.5e Planescape reunion book with all the old authors contributing. Take a look at www.montecook.com and read a bit about it; I think it's what a lot of us need in setting flavor!

Also, you'll note the WotC core rules books and add-ons that are not setting-specifc fall into this category, the new Forgotten Realms are quite flavorful, in my opinion even better than before.

-DM Jeff

 

[Asmor]

I can't speak for the rest of 2E, but I absolutely love the PSCS, and can't wait to get the guide to Sigil too (just got the PSCS yesterday in the mail from some guy on Amazon).

To be fair, though, it was hardly a "random" lucky choice. I originally became interested in Planescape from the PC game Planescape: Torment, and bought the Planescape Campaign Setting PDF from Wizards a couple years ago, so I technically already had this, but still. Incredible book. Absolutely incredible. From the sland used throughout to the quotes set into the pages, it really helps a cutter get a feel for the cant and dark of Planescape.

 

[Zappo]

Help me, guys. Convince me that the flavor is still there. Explain to me why, when I read these two products from 2e, it felt like I was experiencing something I haven't in my 3/3.5 gaming. Convince me that 3/3.5 is not only less filling, but that it also tastes great.

Why should I do it? And what are DM_Jeff and Alzrius talking about? For starters, 2E didn't have much more flavor, and where it did, it either was inopportune or it had the wrong effect - racial restrictions, for example, or muddy alignment descriptions. Then, 3E does not have much flavor either, so I can't convince you otherwise. The flavor has always been in the settings, and it still is in the settings.

You bought Planescape, not a PHB. And when you bought the PHB, you weren't buying Planescape. Why would you expect otherwise? Why would anyone purchase a 3.X core book and expect to find the flavor of Planescape in it? Am I the only one who thinks this is both wildly unreasonable and fairly undesirable?

 

[Gadodel]

A BESM D20 + Planescape situation suddenly sounds exciting...

 

[JeffB]

"Where is this kind of incredible, near-poetic flavor text in 3/3.5e? They've got our mechanics right, but where's our spirit?"

I don't know but when you find it let me know. OK? There are a very few good D20 books, but they are few and far between (most being "crunchy" books), and WOTC hasn't done anything..except maybe the FRCS (which has SOME flavor, but is still very bland compared to 2E Realms products).

Help me, guys. Convince me that the flavor is still there. Explain to me why, when I read these two products from 2e, it felt like I was experiencing something I haven't in my 3/3.5 gaming.

I can't convince you, because unfortunately you are right..not much good flavor/fluff these days at all in D20 products. It's all rules stuff Even the books that have some flavor, are still 40-60 % PRclasses, feats,spells, etc. ad nauseum.

 

[Crothian]

Wow, all I have to say is people just aren't getting the books with the fluff. It is try Wizards no longer really produces them, but there are many, many third party publishers with books filled with the stuff.

Monsternomicon, Monsters of the Endless Dark, Creatures of the Boundless Blue, Dungieon World (though it does have rules problems), Sidewinder Recoiled, Parched Tome, Purgatorium, Bluffside, Freeport, Darlore Campiang Primer...and these are just the ones in addition to the ones I liested above that are off the top of my head.