Just discovered Dark Sun -- have questions!

[Christopher Lambert]

In Dark Sun 2e, there were sorcerers. They were any creature that used spell-like abilities. They were defilers by default.

When a Dark Sun sorcerer casts a spell, they defile by default. Just like a wizard.

I'm not surprised they didn't get that, though. It took them forever to move away from MAD *rolleyes*

 

[PJ-Mason]

I'm saying this as a bit of an outsider looking in, but I think those who think that allowing paladins into Dark Sun turns into "just another vanilla fantasy setting" are using just a wee bit of hyperbole.

Just a tad, anyway...

The thrust of it isn't just paladins. They changed many things that tear at the fabric of the setting.

Paladins are the most...head-on-table-thunking...part of the equation, though, which is why it stands out. Their is no "unerring goodness" in Dark Sun. Hang the paladin's mechanics (ie no gods to get them from, which isn't right either). DS has a dark, dangerous, and selfish atmosphere of survival and hard earned trust. One paladin in the group chucks it right out the window.

Throwing in the Monk with no changes. There is no eastern culture in DS and gladiators are NOT monks in any sense of D&D mechanics. Another example of throwing something in the setting because everyone loves to play them, not because they make any sense.

Sorcerers don't fit as well according to the nature of DS magic. The mechanics aren't totally off (spontaneous spellcasting has been seen in the books), but being born with the magic in them sure as heck doesn't.

Bards have their niche and its in the mundane nature of poisons, secrets, assassination, and shapers of politics. It sure as heck is not inspiring war music and spellcasting.

Even their magic system is off. They have a nice little side effect of turning defilers into twisted dark beings who are slowly atrophied and destroyed by defiling. Interesting...but not Dark Sun. Another thing they threw in that had nothing to do with DS, but they thought it was cool or something.

What it boils down to is that this new version of DS wan't a good faith effort. It was a writer who decided to (or was told to) write a "This is what i thought DS should have been like" series of articles. Thats why a lot of us were quite irked about it.

Say what you like about Athas.org (i don't agree with everything they did either) but at least they give a damn about the setting!

 

[Staffan]

Well, the sorcerers are a bit silly. There were no sorcerers in any setting prior to 3e, so what makes Dark Sun so special?

The fact that arcane magic isn't a natural part of the world. It took what is probably the most powerful person who ever walked the surface of the planet centuries of experimentation to come up with arcane magic, and millenia to get it to a point where he could teach it to others. Having people born with natural arcane abilities goes against that.

Well, actually if you read the books, then a lot of the wizards function identically to sorcerors - they cast spontaneously, certainly not from pre-prepared lists. Or at the least, there's no mention whatsoever of them running through their mind to see if they prepared anything appropriate this morning, and there never seems to be a situation where they don't have the appropriate spell on-hand. Seems to me they're sorcerors.

Sadira, before she became a Sun Wizard, was definitely dependant on her spell book.

 

[Desdichado]

You guys almost make it sound like Dark Sun is more appropriate as a setting for a different game than D&D.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

You guys almost make it sound like Dark Sun is more appropriate as a setting for a different game than D&D.

Well, it is one of the TSR settings where role-playing issues in regards to classes were integral to the setting's presentation and play.

It is easy to ignore some issues and just adopt your favorite features of Dark Sun into your own "post-apoc fantasy" setting.

Dark Sun was certainly an experiment to see how many sacred cows of traditional D&D could be twisted. Its original presentation to TSR management didn't even have elves, halflings, or dwarves. Management insisted that those races be inserted for the mere fact of familiarity to the customer base. Of course, the designers put their own twist on those races. Elves: greatly taller than humans, tribal raiders plundering everyone. Dwarves: hairless. Halflings: primitive savages, the creator race of the planet. Dragons: metamorphosed human defiler/psionicists.

Another integral issue is that metal is scarce and inferior material weapons are what everyone uses. Importing a non-Dark Sun adventure can be a chore. I tried this once, and my PCs started disassembling doors for the nails and hinges so they could sell them for the value. Forget the monsters! The doors were sources of greater treasure! Oops on my part, of course.

An aside: many Core D&D monsters do not exist in Dark Sun. Especially undead. There are skeleton and zombies, but no ghouls, wights, ghasts, wraiths, mummies, specters, vampires, ghosts or liches. Athas has its own unique undead. There are many other Core D&D beasties which are not in Dark Sun as well.

It's just not easy to simply drop core D&D into the setting of Dark Sun and not know how things were made different than the core assumptions. Core D&D isn't good for Dark Sun, true. Really, so many changes are important to the setting that Dark Sun would be better a D20 game. Athas.org is trying to keep as close to Core D&D as possible, WotC tasked them with this as a condition of being the official fansite. But Core D&D is very inappropriate to Dark Sun.

If you are one where there will likely never be consequences for public arcane spellcasting, beyond the defiling, sorcerers and wizards are equal. Of course, you can do what ever you wish in your own Dark Sun, as it goes without saying.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Mark Hope]

With some minor tweaks to the fluff, sorcerers can be imported into Dark Sun without making too many waves. If you rule that a sorcerer is a spellcaster who has simply learned a limited number of spells (from a mentor, through study or even from an ancient spellbook), he is mostly no different from a wizard, save for the fact that he casts spontaneously. Do away with the idea that a sorcerer's power comes from within or is a result of arcane ancestry. Sorcerers are preservers or defilers, just like wizards - they just have a limited spell-list. There may be a little niche-conflict with psions but a sorcerer can function like any other DS arcane spellcaster without trampling on the setting's flavour.

 

[Desdichado]

It's just not easy to simply drop core D&D into the setting of Dark Sun and not know how things were made different than the core assumptions. Core D&D isn't good for Dark Sun, true. Really, so many changes are important to the setting that Dark Sun would be better a D20 game. Athas.org is trying to keep as close to Core D&D as possible, WotC tasked them with this as a condition of being the official fansite. But Core D&D is very inappropriate to Dark Sun.

And it only makes sense that a Dragon Mag and Dungeon Mag conversion would be even closer to the core rules.

Personally, I don't have any problem with it moving farther away from Core, or even being a separate non-D&D d20 game. But I can see why that's extremely unlikely to ever come to pass.

 

[Davelozzi]

Throwing in the Monk with no changes. There is no eastern culture in DS and gladiators are NOT monks in any sense of D&D mechanics. Another example of throwing something in the setting because everyone loves to play them...

Everyone loves to play monks? Really? In twenty years of playing D&D, I've yet to encounter anyone who wanted to play a monk.

Seriously though, I agree, the everything and the kitchen sink model of campaign design has got to go. Are people really up in arms because there's a class that they can't use in their Player's Handbook?

And Joshua, you're right, Dark Sun would make much more sense as a separate d20 game instead of a D&D campaign world. Of course, in those days, there was no easy way for TSR to market something as "like D&D, but different".

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Sorcerers are preservers or defilers, just like wizards - they just have a limited spell-list.

Not totally. Arcane spellcasters are reviled by everyone. Hunted and put to death when found usually. Sorcerers can far more easily hide this fact. But if a DM removes this integral flavor of the setting that PCs won't ever be challenged with it, then yes, they are just like wizards, whether preserver or defiler. This is a role-playing issue, obviously, not a game balance one. It has no bearing on the game mechanical features and abilities of the class.

It is not unheard of for people playing Dark Sun to throw this role-playing aspect of the setting out the window though. It sort of makes the Veiled Alliance a good ol' boys club the preserver PC comes to for more spells, and for many, the Veiled Alliance never comes into play either.

IMO, a 3e/D20 Dark Sun would be best servered by a single PC arcane spellcaster class that is a blend of both sorcerer and wizard, where being a preserver or a defiler is simply a continuum.

In a campaign where spellbooks are irrelevent, another option might be to remove the Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Still Spell feats. That way a sorcerer can never hide when he is casting his arcane spell and his gestures, arcane words, and arcane components will give him away. Then an Athasian sorcerer will have to bluff his way out of being discovered as equally as the Athasian wizard.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Ry]

Anthropomorphophage?