Just got Complete Divine -- any issues I should be aware of?

[pawsplay]

RSoP isn't a big issue for me, since Greater Turning has been removed from my campaign anyway. (I'm not a fan of a single lucky roll killing off an undead BBEG.)

If it's a BBEG, just make them immune to turning, like Death Knights or Tomb Wardens.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If it's a BBEG, just make them immune to turning, like Death Knights or Tomb Wardens.

I'd rather have the Sun domain power have some utility on BBEGs. "Sorry, no effect" is really something I want to avoid as much as possible. Instead, I changed the Sun domain power into a free Exalted Turning feat (from BoED).

 

[Felon]

If RSP is what you want, pretty much exactly, then it's advantageous, but how is that not true of any specialized class?

Uggh. Such shameless equivocation. Why, the way you make it sound, giving a prestige class any requirements at all constitutes a monumental sacrifice.

As I said, it's a walk-in for any cleric of Pelor, with benefits far in excess of its requirements. Yes, folks, free empower/maximize on healing is a big deal. Free greater turnings is also a big deal. All the other stuff is--buffed-up light spells, free domain--is very good stuff, and at the end of the day, it really hasn't cost the cleric anything to get into the class.

 

[frankthedm]

I'd rather have the Sun domain power have some utility on BBEGs. "Sorry, no effect" is really something I want to avoid as much as possible. Instead, I changed the Sun domain power into a free Exalted Turning feat (from BoED).

I used my change to the sun domain to make it useful to all clerics rather than just those fighting undead [Undead are screwed enough by clerics anyhoo]. I overcompensated so those who did take the sun domain didn't feel too badly nerfed. Replacment power: You may cast your Cure wounds and Inflict wounds spells as short ranged ranged touch rays. Maybe too useful but healing is precious, precise shot will be needed to use effectivly on allies in melee and using cleric spells for blasting with a will save for half sounds inefficent in theory. Plus the Flavor is soooo fitting for a sun cleric. [Balance note, my game does not have the touch to range tough metamagic feat or the Zen archery feat. Also Domains have to taken from one's diety(no cherrypicking)]

TheComplete Divine Alternate turning system 30' radius of damage is really popular. The problem is the damage a cleric does is so great, the suggested 1 point resist per turn resist point is a joke and nowhere near equal turn resists's previous potency.

Cleric level 1 3.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 2 7 average damage per turn
Cleric level 3 10.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 4 14 average damage per turn
Cleric level 5 17.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 6 21 average damage per turn
Cleric level 7 24.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 8 28 average damage per turn
Cleric level 9 31.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 10 35 average damage per turn
Cleric level 11 38.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 12 42 average damage per turn
Cleric level 13 45.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 14 49 average damage per turn
Cleric level 15 52.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 16 56 average damage per turn
Cleric level 17 59.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 18 63 average damage per turn
Cleric level 19 66.5 average damage per turn
Cleric level 20 70 average damage per turn

I agree. I think it should be 1d6 decrease in damage for every turn resistance point you have.

I'd say

4 per Turn resist point for games where undead rarely have acess to any HP boosters.

Only 3 per Turn resist point for games where undead have access to HP boosters. Unholy toughness, Improved toughness, ToH Death's blessing, or those feats from libris mortis that boost drain HP.

Maybe treat it like energy resistance, in this case positive energy. Give them 5 points per +1 of turning resistance. Then undead get either 10 points or 20 points of protection from each turning attack. It makes them virtually immune to low level clerics and maybe even the extra damage from holy weapons too (if you interpret it that way).

 

[pawsplay]

Uggh. Such shameless equivocation. Why, the way you make it sound, giving a prestige class any requirements at all constitutes a monumental sacrifice.

As I said, it's a walk-in for any cleric of Pelor, with benefits far in excess of its requirements. Yes, folks, free empower/maximize on healing is a big deal. Free greater turnings is also a big deal. All the other stuff is--buffed-up light spells, free domain--is very good stuff, and at the end of the day, it really hasn't cost the cleric anything to get into the class.

I think it does cost. First of all, you need the Sun domain, and second, you need the Healing domain if you wish to make use of those buffed up heals. That means that effectively, a Radiant Servant is not going to have access to the Good or Strength domains without taking a level of Contemplative or something, which is significant. You also have to take Extra Turning, which while useful, is a heavy commitment for a cleric, who tend to be feat-starved. So I would say that 75% or more of single classed clerics of Pelor are going to either not qualify, or not have the Healing domain. Without prestige classing, you will never have access to holy smite. If you do prestige class, your BAB problems only get worse.

Second, let's look at the costs of entry. A number of ranks in Heal are skill ranks the cleric is never going to see again, and let's face it, how often is a cleric with the Healing domain going to need Heal, aside from the utility of cure minor wounds? Also, unless you enter at exactly level 8, you are not going to both complete the class and keep your BAB intact.

 

[Felon]

I think it does cost. First of all, you need the Sun domain, and second, you need the Healing domain if you wish to make use of those buffed up heals. That means that effectively, a Radiant Servant is not going to have access to the Good or Strength domains without taking a level of Contemplative or something, which is significant.

The reason this is a weak arguement is because you're not demonstrating any actual sacrifice. You're doing what I said you were doing before, offering the rationalization that any choice you're required to make--be it a feat that's actually very good to have, two domains that are every bit as effective as the other domains available, or a pittance of skill points--is a major sacrifice.

A choice is not truly a sacrifice unless the choices you're making are demonstrably inferior to other choices you could have made. In order to make the gratuitous excesses of the RoSP balance out against what a plain ol' cleric of Pelor gets, you basically have to start out in the negative column.

So I would say that 75% or more of single classed clerics of Pelor are going to either not qualify, or not have the Healing domain. Without prestige classing, you will never have access to holy smite. If you do prestige class, your BAB problems only get worse.

Where do you get the 75% estimate from? If you're suggesting that the players of aspiring servants of Pelor aren't going to have the good sense to take the two necessary domains-- that the choice of a PrC is a last-minute haphazard decision for those folks--then you're just being blatantly coy.

Also, unless you enter at exactly level 8, you are not going to both complete the class and keep your BAB intact.

So, wait until 8th level to take it if you don't want to lose the BAB. Many far less lavish PrC's don't even give you the option of taking the PrC before 8th. Zero sacrifice.

I lay three bills down on a table side-by-side. One's a dollar bill and the other two are twenties. I tell you to choose one. Now, only one of those choices is really a raw deal. But the logic you would present here is that any of those choices is a sacrifice, because it denies you the opportunity to select the other two. I think most people would find that pretty spurious.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Take everything in this book with a hefty grain of salt.

Faith feats - action points, but with availability granted by feats? Yeah, real good idea there.

Relics - kinda cool, but note that there's a feat which lets you craft them. First up: huh? Second up: Woo! I can make free magical items according to these rules! Not to mention that the idea that relics of a god should simply be price breaks on magical items is ridiculous to start.

Divine metamagic - Note than any other feat which comes close has a spell-level cap on it.

And then there's a lot of the spells which are either so badly explained that you can't use them, or are so overpowered that you can't use them. Most of the ones left after that are just bad - they don't fit the characters that recieve them (Cometfall? Cleric? Dragon breath? Cleric?) or they're just messy and badly-thought out.

Really, this is one book that a lot of the time you'd be better off without - it causes a lot of stress and doesn't have all that many gems. Whatever you do, don't let players off with a carte blanche.

Oh, and any time a player says "can I have <some wierd group of feats and powers>?", your answer should be "Why? What exactly do you intend to pull off?".

 

[pawsplay]

The reason this is a weak arguement is because you're not demonstrating any actual sacrifice. You're doing what I said you were doing before, offering the rationalization that any choice you're required to make--be it a feat that's actually very good to have, two domains that are every bit as effective as the other domains available, or a pittance of skill points--is a major sacrifice.

Why does it have to be a major sacrifice? The class benefits are very specialized, and the hit die reduction is already significant.

A choice is not truly a sacrifice unless the choices you're making are demonstrably inferior to other choices you could have made. In order to make the gratuitous excesses of the RoSP balance out against what a plain ol' cleric of Pelor gets, you basically have to start out in the negative column.

Thank you for condescending.

Where do you get the 75% estimate from? If you're suggesting that the players of aspiring servants of Pelor aren't going to have the good sense to take the two necessary domains-- that the choice of a PrC is a last-minute haphazard decision for those folks--then you're just being blatantly coy.

I'm just working under the knowledge that

1) many clerics of Pelor will want access to the Good domain
2) many clerics of Pelor will want access to the Strength domain
3) many clerics of pelor will not want to choose Extra Turning as a feat
4) some clerics of pelor will not have a lot of skill ranks to throw around

Obviously, it's not a problem for aspiring radiant servants. But there are a great many clerics of Pelor who are not aspirating to be radiant servants, or if they were thinking about, decided to go with something else.

So, wait until 8th level to take it if you don't want to lose the BAB. Many far less lavish PrC's don't even give you the option of taking the PrC before 8th. Zero sacrifice.

If you want to be an 8th level cleric, zero sacrifice. If you do not, that's a sacrifice. If you do not take exactly eight levels, there is a sacrifice.

I lay three bills down on a table side-by-side. One's a dollar bill and the other two are twenties. I tell you to choose one. Now, only one of those choices is really a raw deal. But the logic you would present here is that any of those choices is a sacrifice, because it denies you the opportunity to select the other two. I think most people would find that pretty spurious.

Your analogy sucks.

This more like, would you like the chicken sandwich and coke, or would you like the cheeseburger and the coke with a free upsize? If you want a chicken sandwich and you don't want a cheeseburger, you aren't going to choose the second option.

Or an even better analogy, "The Duelist is totally overpowered. Why would any Dex-based rapier wielding melee character who doesn't want to wear armor NOT take this class?"

IF you already want the Sun and Healing domains, wish to worship Pelor, find Extra Turning as useful as any other feat you would choose, and wish to take exactly eight levels of cleric, then it's true, you lose:

- a few ranks in Heal, a suboptimal skill
- one hit point per level you take as a radiant servant
- one point of Reflex save

and you gain

- a few powered up cure spells a day
- some nice turning options
- that light spell thing
- martial weapon proficiency
- two points of Fortitude and Will save

Is that enough to make all clerics want to be a radiant servant? No. Is it enough to tempt even all clerics of Pelor? No.

Is a radiant servant of pelor more powerful than a cleric of Pelor who chooses Good and Strength as domains? Not necessarily. In some respects, definitely yes. In others, definitely no.

What are your other options besides being a radiant servant?

You could continue as a cleric, gaining more hit points, and choosing different domains.

You could take a different prestige class than Radiant Servant.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Oh, and any time a player says "can I have <some wierd group of feats and powers>?", your answer should be "Why? What exactly do you intend to pull off?".

Well, that's why I never bought the book, myself. (And why I started this thread.)

So far, the only thing the player has wanted was to cast lesser vigor, which seems like a good way to not die in a low level fight, but which doesn't seem to guarantee winning, either. If the whole party ends up stable at -2 hit points while the BBEG is still standing, it's coup de grace all around.

Controversial prestige classes are also not likely to be an issue, since it's a pbp game and, 10 months into the game, everyone's between level 1 and 2.5.

 

[Prism]

Yes, folks, free empower/maximize on healing is a big deal. .

I wouldn't call it a big deal at all. Once per day per spell level you get to empower and/or maximize a healing spell. Neither feat works on heal or mass heal so thats a maximum of seven spells a day if you count all 9 spell levels. Which also means you aren't learning any of the cool spells from the sun domain. Even with this benefit I would say that the sun domain spells are much better still than the healing domain so for many people this feature is wasted - especially since healing spells are so easy to come by for a cleric