D&D 5E Just One More Thing: The Power of "No" in Design (aka, My Fun, Your Fun, and BadWrongFun)

pemerton

Legend
In your example you stated that he would play the Rogue but for the ranger. If the next best alternative class is the rogue, as it seemed to be from the example, that was the opportunity cost of playing the ranger. BY DEFINITION.

Your forumsplaning is wrong and inapposite of what was discussed.
If you offer me $2 for my pencil case, and someone else offers me $4, taking the $4 offer doesn't generate an opportunity cost of $2. It's just a better offer!

More generally - the notion of opportunity cost assumes that the benefits of the alternative aren't all obtained also by making the actual choice.

Frankty, the forumpslaining is on the other foot. I was making an actual point, which is that notions of "opportunity cost" aren't apposite if a new option just gives someone more of what they want. Eg if someone really wants to play a vampire hunter, and but for the invention of the cleric would have shoehorned a fighter into that role, Arneson's invention of the cleric doesn't create an "opportunity cost" of not getting to shoehorn the fighter.

While I'm trying to actually talk about what new options do and don't bring to the table, you seem to think it's time to give me a lecture in 1st year economics.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If your argument was true in general, then every spell added to the wizard spell list would be a bad or at least unhelpful thing. Whereas in fact I would conjecture that additions to the MU/wizard spell list is the single most frequently published game element in the history of D&D.
Quite likely, though from 3e onward "additions to the Feats list" has been making a mighty push to catch up!

Where the bloat comes from - and this gets right back to the original thread premise of the power of no - is that while DMs are always eager to add new spells they rarely if ever look to delete any. But if a spell never gets cast*, or is of limited if any use if-when it does, why keep it in the game? Why not say 'no'?

* - including by the opposition; some spells are worth keeping just so the DM has them available even if the PCs never touch them

You mention...

... in all my years of AD&D play I've never seen anyone memorise Affect Normal Fires.
Were this my experience, next time I started a campaign that spell would be gone as clearly nobody would miss it. And then I'd have room to add in a new spell idea that might see more action and may be more useful/fun/entertaining, without adding to the overall list bloat.

In my current 1e-based game I've made all casters work like 3e Sorcerers, partly in hopes of seeing some obscure spells get cast more often; and while it's helped a bit there's still quite a few spells that never see the light of day. So, for my next campaign, out will come the pruning shears... :)
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
If your argument was true in general, then every spell added to the wizard spell list would be a bad or at least unhelpful thing. Whereas in fact I would conjecture that additions to the MU/wizard spell list is the single most frequently published game element in the history of D&D. (Maybe there have been more monsters. That could be the only rival category.)

I fear you haven't grasped my argument, if you say I am characterizing everything new as bad or unhelpful. What I say is that once you reach a good amount, other things that get added are likely to either displace either options (by being better) or to be bloat (but not being played), to an extent more than just spreading out what people play (actual additional choices). However you bring up a salient point about nature of the newness and how different categories can vary that's worth discussing.

Generally a casting character has more spells known then classes, and uses a variety over the course of an adventure. They are initentionally looking for a variety. So it's not like classes, where a group of five players will likely only have 4-10 classes between, a group of five players between casters and half casters will likely have dozens of spells in use, reaching up to hundreds if you get up the higher tiers. So there's a lot potential to add spells without displacing other spells or adding bloat. Especially as there are large categories of empty area that have nothing. Look at how SCAG added melee cantrips, something new. That's a great add.

But if a source went and made 20 variations of Fireball, all 3rd level, Fire damage with the same radius, but they all did less damage - that wouldn't add much variation to the game in practical play. If instead the average damage was all over the place between the variations it still wouldn't add much variation at the table - characters gaining would take the one with the most damage. So even with spells, which are a category that normally adds to the game, bad choices such as spells that are very similar to existing spells but over or under powered don't add variety.

I also don't see how you reconcile your argument with the fact that the class list, and within that the lists of class abilities, has changed and (generally) grown over the history of D&D. The introduction of paladins, rangers and barbarians almost certainly has reduced the number of fighters who get played. Just as the introduction of warlocks, sorcerers and druids probably reduces the number of MUs/wizard played. Is that an argument against the introduction of those classes? Is there some virtue in playing the "original" stuff?

When you have Cleric, Fighter, Magic User, Thief, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling as your classes, and five players, there's not just room for additional variation, there's a need for it. Compare to 4e, where you have 22 from just PHB1, PHB2 and PHB3, plus the various other books, and then the Essentials versions of the classes. You've reached a point where with a five person group doing a few campaigns over the lifetime of the edition, you still will have some unplayed.

I assume you'll agree that when the PHB1 was the only 4e PHB out, the classes in there got more play in any particular party than later when all of the various classes were out. My point is that it is not just dilution, where 8 classes get 1/8th of the play and 22 classes would get 1/22nd of the pay, but to a degree replacement. If some of those 22 classes were in 10% of parties, and some were only in 1% or 0.1% of parties, you've had options that were either introduced as bloat, or were an earlier class that has since been superseded.

I also don't see that the notion of opportunity cost is salient here. In my main 4e game no one played a rogue. But the guy who played a ranger might have played a rouge instead had there been no ranger option. But it's not a cost to our table (opportunity or otherwise) not to see a rogue in play. Just as it's not any sort of cost that in all my years of AD&D play I've never seen anyone memorise Affect Normal Fires.

op·por·tu·ni·ty cost
noun
Economics
noun: opportunity cost; plural noun: opportunity costs
  1. the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.
Your situation is a textbook example of an opportunity cost. One less rogue was played because a ranger was played. Since the cost we are talking about is not one levied against your table, but rather a note about potential bloat, it's perfectly normal your table did not notice paying a cost - it didn't. But in the case of ranger or rogue I think all of the current base classes of 5e are worth including. I do worry about proliferation of subclasses, so examining that at your table may be more rewarding in understanding my point.

For example, with the exception of lowkey13, I think the majority would say Paladin was a good addition to the class list and often played. But how many Oath of the Crown Paladins (SCAG) have you seen played? How many Oath of Redemtion paladins have you see at actual (or virtual) tables? Or the flip side - when there were only Totem and Berserker barbarians, we at least saw a few Berserkers. But with the addition of additional options for barbarians in later books, we don't even see those Berserkers (unless they have house rules to bolster them).
 
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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
It can't be an example of opportunity cost, that makes no sense.

By this interpretation, if I go to a store, win a free candy bar, and pick a mars bar, I just lost a dollar because I didn't pick my second favorite bar.

... heck I lost a small fortune because I didn't pick all these other candy bars!

(I will repeat however that I do agree that complexity and overabundance of choice has a cost).
 

Really? When does the game tell us the PC fights against a random town guard? I didn't realize that was a requirement of the rules.

And therein lies my point. The fiction of the story is about what actually happens... not what COULD happen. Could a 1st level PC be defeated by a town guardsman? Mechanically, sure. But if that 1st level PC never fights one (because there's no reason in the story for that fight to happen), then it doesn't matter. I care about what actually happens in the narrative, not what the mechanics tell us COULD happen. Because when you only care about "could", you have no choice be to look at the totality of the mechanics and make determinations completely devoid of story. The Best Swordsman In The Land HAS to be a level 20 Battlemaster or Oath of Vengeance Paladin (or whatever white-room sim you've come up with), because every other character is less than that.

It's the same reason why I find it silly when people complain that a Rogue is a "better" arcanist than a Wizard, because the Rogue could take Expertise in the Arcana skill (and thus the Wizard will never have the potentially best score in it.) But the problem with that is... no games ever actually HAVE Rogues that have taken Expertise in Arcana to keep "showing up" all the wizards in the campaign. It doesn't happen. That story never actually plays out. So it doesn't matter in the slightest that mechanically-speaking the Rogue as a class COULD be the most Arcana-based character in the game. If they don't appear, then they don't exist.

Now... that's not to say a player couldn't actually do that-- have their Rogue character take an 18 INT and take Expertise in Arcana, eventually bumping their INT to 20 and so on and so forth. But if that player chooses to do that, I'm fairly certain that player will be roleplaying to the hilt that their "non-wizard" somehow knows more about wizardry than any other character in the story. And the DM will hopefully run with that story potential as well, giving ample opportunities to show it off. If that player is going all-in, then we would hope the character and their story is going to be all about it. At which point, then yeah, it's perfectly acceptable that the Rogue be the best Arcana skill-based class in the game, because the story is going to exemplify it.

But guess what? This whole scenario can also play out with a Rogue who doesn't have Expertise in Arcana and only has a 16 in INT. Why? Because the player plays the character exactly the same way... and the DM presents challenges that allows the Rogue player to potentially still exemplify it. The Rogue PC out-Arcanas the wizards in this campaign story, and continually shows off his ability, even without having the best possible mechanics to do it. And why? Well, maybe the times when the Rogue PC shows off their knowledge of Arcana the player keeps rollings 17, 18, or 20s and the wizards NPCs roll 4s, 7s, and 8s. And the Rogue keeps winning these "contests" in arcana lore even without being the best mechanical representation. Even against wizards that might 2, 3, 5 levels "higher" than the PC. In the story those "levels" do not matter, the actual Arcana skill number doesn't matter...

...all that matters is that in-story, this Rogue has exemplified their superiority. And at that point... the DM does the proper improvisational "Yes, And..." and goes along with the idea that in this story in this campaign, this random Rogue PC apparently is the most knowledgeable magical-lore person in the land. And the story will be geared towards enhancing and challenging that assertion in interesting and campaign setting ways... not just having the Rogue face random town guards that they could mechanically fail to defeat. Because what would be the point of that? That's the complete absence of drama, and to me, a complete waste of time.
While I do understand what you're getting at here, and agree that the ACTUAL narrative is what drives description of the world, and not the POTENTIAL narrative (IE the likely outcome of applying the mechanics in expected types of situations); I still see your position as highly forced and awkward.

That is to say, the first level "greatest swordsman on Earth", or the "Rogue who is the greatest Wizard" can only exercise their beliefs and actualize corresponding narratives in a highly restricted, and often downright contrived, milieu. Should any situation come up where the swordsman might reasonably confront the town guard, some other belief, goal, random chance, etc. must be narrated to interpose between him and defeat. What is most likely to result is a narrative of unwarranted hubris and not one of actual competence. Or else a narrative of ironic humor in which his genuine capability is NEVER allowed to shine.

Admittedly, these are possible, and maybe even interesting, narratives, or could be at least. At least in D&D terms, which appears to be a game based around narratives that roughly follow a pattern of characters progressing in ability from low to high through a long process of risk-taking, these are still very odd duck types of story, at best. I agree that, as an academic exercise, imagining using D&D to accomplish a different type of story is thought-provoking, I don't think it would be very practical. Certainly you would need a very specific and clever group of players. It is hard to imagine a party of, say 5 characters with these kinds of beliefs, really being workable. The situations they would be able to engage in, or the plot armor that would have to be applied, to create narratives consistent with all those beliefs hurts my head to think about, and I consider myself to be fairly capable in terms of DMing different kinds of games.
 

There are "huge amounts" of fiction that does, and huge amounts of fiction that doesn't. It isn't like "the fiction style with the most examples wins, and should be the basis for game design", though, so we don't actually need to find out which is biggest. The thing is that our RPGs (speaking broadly and generally) are not just writing a fiction. They are an imaginative activity that happens to have fiction as one output.

Humans have a very solid psychological hook that helps then stay engaged - power advancement. You can create a game that doesn't use that hook, but doing so... is leaving a very powerful tool unused.
And I think this is something that is illustrative about D&D, and about the topic of this thread too.

Lets contrast D&D and Traveler. These two RPGs (at least in fairly classic form) arose about the same time. D&D envisages a narrative of power progression of the characters, Traveler does not. That is to say D&D has mechanical power progression, Traveler has NONE (well, barely any, and only as a sort of hacked on afterthought).

Now, interestingly, D&D has been through a long set of progressions of development, rules expansion, and redevelopment. Because it IS about increased character power, fundamentally, the options and rules seem to constantly provide for more and more ways to achieve that (regardless of the modularity or design of any specific edition). This has always, so far, lead to situations of 'rules bloat' and scenarios where the publisher finds it expeditious to rewrite the game and start over, effectively.

Traveler OTOH is the exact opposite. PCs are basically unchanging, there is no progression in character terms, and thus characters don't really need a lot of extensions to the rules for new ways to add stuff to your PC. While a bunch of supplements were published covering additional career paths (ways to roll up a PC) and loads of added equipment and such, the core game and its basic PC facing options are the same today in 2020 as they were in 1977. The skill rules in use today are a SLIGHT tweak on the original ones, but any PC rolled up in 1977 is fully compatible with the most current versions of the game. In fact 'new editions' of Traveler have mostly focused on variations of the setting and some GM-facing subsystems mostly. The only real reason to even purchase new Traveler books is basically because your old ones wore out.

Traveler may leave some 'hook' unused, but it also seems to have escaped all the issues of bloat and whatnot. Yet the game has remained in use and is still a pretty popular and easily available RPG, arguably remaining the leading SF RPG. I agree the power advancement hook is a big part of D&D's appeal, but it also seems IMHO to drive game publishers into a need to keep putting out new PC options, and that eventually breaks the game.

I'd argue that 4e, FAR MORE than 5e, is highly generic and modular and suffered much less from this problem. WotC managed to publish over 30 books with 4e content and the game still functions quite well.
 


pemerton

Legend
the production of something new by WOTC always carries with it the opportunity cost of what was not produced. Producing a new setting, for example, means that those finite resources (time, money) were not used to make a different setting, or a different book. That doesn't make something good, or bad, but it is.
Yes. I don't think this is controversial. Allocating resources in a productive enterprise is all about having regard to opportunity costs.

But choosing to play a particular class in a particular D&D campaign is often, even perhaps typically, not like this - to begin with it's not an allocation of a productive resource. If you really want to play a wilderness warrior, start building it as a rogue because that's all you know about, and then someone shows you the ranger and you say Whoa, that's exactly what I wanted! there is no opportunity cost of not playing a rogue in building your PC as a ranger instead. There is an opportunity cost in spending some amount of time on the rebuilding rather than just getting on with the game, but that is a cost in time, not in rogues not played.

op·por·tu·ni·ty cost
noun
Economics
noun: opportunity cost; plural noun: opportunity costs
  1. the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.
Your situation is a textbook example of an opportunity cost. One less rogue was played because a ranger was played. Since the cost we are talking about is not one levied against your table, but rather a note about potential bloat, it's perfectly normal your table did not notice paying a cost - it didn't. But in the case of ranger or rogue I think all of the current base classes of 5e are worth including. I do worry about proliferation of subclasses, so examining that at your table may be more rewarding in understanding my point.
How is one less rogue being played an opportunity cost? What potential gain was foregone? The gain of backstabbing rather than using hunter's quarry?

And what cost are you talking about being suffered by other tables? How can a choice made at my table create an opportunity cost for someone else? The choice made at our table didn't affect anyone else's range of options nor the choice they might have made from among them.

I fear you haven't grasped my argument, if you say I am characterizing everything new as bad or unhelpful. What I say is that once you reach a good amount, other things that get added are likely to either displace either options (by being better) or to be bloat (but not being played), to an extent more than just spreading out what people play (actual additional choices).
I think that what you say is probably a tautology, especially given that "a good amount" is most naturally defined as a good range of additional choices short of bloat or broken options.

But as I posted upthread, is there any particular reason to think that the 5e PHB plus material published since has reached exactly that point? That nothing more can be added that is not either bloat or broken?
 

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