Just Plain Broken

[Cameron]

Right, and claiming wish works the way you wish it worked doesn't make that so, either. Or would you like to quote the text of the spell which says the DM can do nasty things if the PC wishes for any sum of gold?

Likewise, claiming that you and your group are *mature* enough to handle broken rules doesn't make the rules less broken.

Cheers, -- N

I don't know. Perverting Wishes sounds about right.

It seems that the main issue that people have with Dweomerkeeper is the Wish spell, which seems to suggest that the problem lies not with Dweomerkeeper, but with Wish.

 

[IanB]

With summoned creatures, there's probably an (iffy) argument to be made about them only obeying the summoner, not the character initiating the maneuver, too. It doesn't really fix the fundamental issues, even if you accept it.

 

[Brazeku]

I don't know. Perverting Wishes sounds about right.

It seems that the main issue that people have with Dweomerkeeper is the Wish spell, which seems to suggest that the problem lies not with Dweomerkeeper, but with Wish.

Yeah, Wish. Wish and miracle both. heck let's make a list of problem spells!

-Polymorph (any except baleful, really, unless errata has been implemented)
-Wish/Miracle/etc
-Time stop

Not a fan of the shadow conjuration and evocation spells, especially evocation. Not that they're game breaking at all, just that they really damage certain schools of magic and increase the already fairly grotesque power of illusion.

 

[Nifft]

I don't know. Perverting Wishes sounds about right.

Really? You're attacking someone for not knowing the rules, then defending yourself with that? Too *mature* for me, I guess.

It seems that the main issue that people have with Dweomerkeeper is the Wish spell, which seems to suggest that the problem lies not with Dweomerkeeper, but with Wish.

Nah, wish is just the easiest example, because it's so blatantly obvious. Being allowed to ignore the usual costs associated with any spells -- particularly XP costs -- is just inviting trouble. As mentioned previously, gate has similar issues. There are others.

At 5k XP per casting, wish is pretty okay. At free, it would be broken. Guess what makes it free? Yup, something broken.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yeah, Wish. Wish and miracle both. heck let's make a list of problem spells!

-Polymorph (any except baleful, really, unless errata has been implemented)
-Wish/Miracle/etc
-Time stop

Not a fan of the shadow conjuration and evocation spells, especially evocation. Not that they're game breaking at all, just that they really damage certain schools of magic and increase the already fairly grotesque power of illusion.

What's so bad about Wish, assuming you don't exploit to somehow avoid paying the 5000 XP?


On an unrelated note--

Too *mature* for me, I guess.

I'm glad that you have my back on this one, but let's avoid muddying the waters by stooping to those kinds of comments about other posters. I know I'm probably sounding annoying to everyone by now, but I don't want to see the thread go up in flames

 

[Felon]

Just a quick reiteration from the OP:

Be sure to cite the source!

 

[Nifft]

I'm glad that you have my back on this one, but let's avoid muddying the waters by stooping to those kinds of comments about other posters. I know I'm probably sounding annoying to everyone by now, but I don't want to see the thread go up in flames

I'll try to be good.

-- N

 

[Cameron]

Really? You're attacking someone for not knowing the rules, then defending yourself with that? Too *mature* for me, I guess.

Nah, wish is just the easiest example, because it's so blatantly obvious. Being allowed to ignore the usual costs associated with any spells -- particularly XP costs -- is just inviting trouble. As mentioned previously, gate has similar issues. There are others.

At 5k XP per casting, wish is pretty okay. At free, it would be broken. Guess what makes it free? Yup, something broken.

Cheers, -- N

Really? To me, it makes it marginally useful. As I said, other than increasing key stats, I won't even look at casting Wish, let alone memorizing it. Dweomerkeeper is the only thing that would induce me to use it as a 6th level Cleric spell substitute.

There is a difference between not knowing the rules and not abusing them. Just because I advocate not abusing the rules does not mean I don't know them. Making all sorts of basic mistakes (like not knowing how the Cheater of Mystra worked), on the other hand, is an indication of lack of rules knowledge.

 

[Brazeku]

What's so bad about Wish, assuming you don't exploit to somehow avoid paying the 5000 XP?

The spell duplication is okay, even though I dislike it. Mostly it's the item creation, and the whole wishing for greater effects caveat- which can literally mean anything. It's about as broken as you make it. I think it's a problem spell.

 

[Nifft]

Really? To me, it makes it marginally useful. As I said, other than increasing key stats, I won't even look at casting Wish, let alone memorizing it. Dweomerkeeper is the only thing that would induce me to use it as a 6th level Cleric spell substitute.

If wish is so useless, why would you need to pervert wishes?

I'm genuinely curious. Most people seem to think wish is nice & strong, merely too expensive to cast on a regular basis. If it would need to be free for you to consider it even worth preparing, I wonder what you'd consider a strong 9th level spell?

-- N