Just Plain Broken

[AllisterH]

Hmmm, I wasn't in that particular thread then--I was in a different one about Bo9S in general

Do remember though, you can Jump while charging (I know, I know, more Jumps ), which can help with difficult terrain, and you can always have your Wizard Dispel PfE if the enemy is capable of putting that up.

True on the Colossal Red--but the Huge and Gargantuan dragon might be doable. Also, there is nothing that says you have to start on the ground. I believe that an Air Walk or something similar would do the trick--you can cover the lateral distance in your sleep.

Actually that would be DM interpretation on the REALLY leeway side.

re: Stun
Exactly why the big problem with Stun effects given that at the level they come at, a fair number of creatures are just plain immune to Stunning AND it isn't hard to become immune to Stunning effects AND most spellcasters at that level have options that make "stunning for 1 round" seem mild. The only time I can see Stunning being a big problem would be if you only had 1 single BBEG as the opponent since the rest of the team can now attack without worry. You're example of two warblades using a SDS to permastun a opponent I honestly don't have a problem with since I don't use singe encouter enemies and thus in my campaign, it would mean that 2 warblades are taking out 1 guy while the other 2-3 people on free to make merry on the other 2 people on the warblades' team.

re: Warmaster's Charge
See what I mean about preparation. How do your cohorts and you for that matter know where the GRease spell has been cast? Still doesn't deal with the summoned critters and the REALLY big problem. The setup for that manoeuver is just plain horrendous.

You got to ensure everyone is within 30 ft. You also got to ensure everyone has no obstacles other than teammates taking part in the manoeuver. You got to actually be in charging distancing. The opponent basically has to be still as a the guards in front of Windsor palace for this really to work....

 

[Rystil Arden]

The thing is, when flying, flying upwards specifically takes double your movement. It'd be silly to be able to just say "oh, I'll just Jump up instead" and completely negate that very specifically spelled out restriction.

Ah, but it isn't considered flying--that's the difference between Air Walk and Fly, after all. Air Walk is a higher level spell, and in many other ways it is weaker than flying, so I figured that the balance is that you can do other things you would do from the ground. I don't consider that argument conclusive in saying you can't jump from Air Walk. I certainly consider your view possible under RAW, though.

On that note, I'd like to point out that I'm not saying the fact that the DC for the stun save is equal to your Jump check is overpowered - I think it's silly and definitely should be changed to the standard formula for DCs (ie, DC 17+str mod in this case). The strike itself, however, is not in the slightest bit broken. It does reasonable damage considering you're giving up the ability to full attack if you use it, and it's got a massive restriction on it to prevent you from using it against things that are too large.

Ah, then we agree in theory on most point but not one. To wit--having a restriction on when it can be used does not keep something from being broken, since it will break all fights when it can be used. If we agree that the DC on the stun needs to be changed to keep this manoeuvre from making certain fights less fun, we agree on everything, I think, including that the 10d6 damage is perfectly reasonable even if they didn't get to save on it

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually that would be DM interpretation on the REALLY leeway side.

re: Stun
Exactly why the big problem with Stun effects given that at the level they come at, a fair number of creatures are just plain immune to Stunning AND it isn't hard to become immune to Stunning effects AND most spellcasters at that level have options that make "stunning for 1 round" seem mild. The only time I can see Stunning being a big problem would be if you only had 1 single BBEG as the opponent since the rest of the team can now attack without worry. You're example of two warblades using a SDS to permastun a opponent I honestly don't have a problem with since I don't use singe encouter enemies and thus in my campaign, it would mean that 2 warblades are taking out 1 guy while the other 2-3 people on free to make merry on the other 2 people on the warblades' team.

re: Warmaster's Charge
See what I mean about preparation. How do your cohorts and you for that matter know where the GRease spell has been cast? Still doesn't deal with the summoned critters and the REALLY big problem. The setup for that manoeuver is just plain horrendous.

You got to ensure everyone is within 30 ft. You also got to ensure everyone has no obstacles other than teammates taking part in the manoeuver. You got to actually be in charging distancing. The opponent basically has to be still as a the guards in front of Windsor palace for this really to work....

Hmm, well certain things will be more or less powerful in certain campaigns, that's definitely true.

However, the "Big Enemy" fight and the "Big Enemy + mookish minions" fights seem fairly prevalent in many published adventures, and are at least a big enough portion of encounters to make this problematic. And the beauty for the player is that they don't have to use that strike if it doesn't apply for them that time. 1 readied manoeuvre is a loss, but it isn't such a big deal, plus your Warblade stunning one enemy of the opponent's group and hurting that enemy is usually a good enough deal to make it worth using (just maybe not spamming), unless the enemies are en masse.

Re Warmaster's: I think the critical thought with which I don't agree is that the armies of mooks are needed to break it. It's already a problem even if you can just bring over three or four good meleers (Athena help us all if even one of said meleers is a charge specialist!), hit, and stun, for free, though it is admittedly much worse if their attack bonus is boosted so high that they can power attack without fear and the little guys all get to hit. But if the enemy used up resources to convert a devastating mega-Warmaster's into a situation where only the best get to charge, stun, and subsequently attack, I'd still call that a huge win for the Warmaster's user.

 

[AllisterH]

I'll mention one spell which frustrates me.

Shivering Touch. No, I don't think it should be that easy to take out anything that doesn't have a SR. What's that? There's a spell that basically nerfs SR? Oh joy....

 

[Nifft]

Considering that I am not the only one that says you don't seem to know what you are talking about, I'd hardly think it was an attack.

Given your interpretation of how wish works, you really shouldn't accuse others of not knowing the rules.

- - -

DMM is broken. SDS is broken, but can be fixed by changing the DC of the Stun effect to the standard formula (17 + Str). White Raven Tactics is broken, but can be fixed by making it "fighter-friendly" (grants 1 attack action or move up to your speed). Belt of Battle, see previous.

Cheers, -- N

 

[AllisterH]

DMM is broken. SDS is broken, but can be fixed by changing the DC of the Stun effect to the standard formula (17 + Str). White Raven Tactics is broken, but can be fixed by making it "fighter-friendly" (grants 1 attack action or move up to your speed). Belt of Battle, see previous.

Cheers, -- N

DMM can be fixed as well. You know, the standard "only if the effect is of a level you can cast normally".

Now, the FRenzied Berseker, Planar shepherd and Shivering Touch...I can't see how to fix those...

 

[Cameron]

I'll mention one spell which frustrates me.

Shivering Touch. No, I don't think it should be that easy to take out anything that doesn't have a SR. What's that? There's a spell that basically nerfs SR? Oh joy....

Well, Ray of Stupidity lets you one-shot kill animals and many magical beasts at range with no save. Also, you can Quicken it as a 6th level spell, and combine that with Feeblemind, you have a Will save or die combination there. Funny thing is that I have people telling me that is broken... A 6th level and a 5th level spell slot to produce a Will save or die effect...


What the-???

 

[Rystil Arden]

DMM can be fixed as well. You know, the standard "only if the effect is of a level you can cast normally".

Now, the FRenzied Berseker, Planar shepherd and Shivering Touch...I can't see how to fix those...

Hmm...Though it can't be houseruled as easily, Frenzied Berserker can be handled in un-houseruled form more easier than some of those others, but it may depend on specifics of the character. The character playing IMC also had two levels in Paladin of Freedom and very high Charisma, so he wouldn't fail the check to stop fighting but rarely, so the 'kills other PCs' was out of the way. But his saves weren't high enough to avoid Frenzying at adverse times--for instance, if a trap hit him for 40 damage. Having Frenzy wasted by traps and such can cause the FB to be weaker than it might seem. Other interesting things to use are Disintegrate and Calm Emotions. There was one particularly interesting fight:

BBEG: "It would seem that I cannot defeat you. That is commendable. You have defended the artifact admirably, and when you join your allies in the great mead hall, you shall surely be regarded as a true hero. I salute you. But I must away back to my lair."

::BBEG casts Invisibility::

::FB dies from end of Frenzy::

::BBEG proceeds onward::

Of note, my FB player and I decided to ignore the 3.5 change that allows the FB to not die if healed before the end of the Frenzy. We thought it was more thematic if he died if ever brought below the death threshold, like in 3.0, thus making Deathless Frenzy more of a pyrrhic victory.

 

[Cameron]

Given your interpretation of how wish works, you really shouldn't accuse others of not knowing the rules.

- - -

DMM is broken. SDS is broken, but can be fixed by changing the DC of the Stun effect to the standard formula (17 + Str). White Raven Tactics is broken, but can be fixed by making it "fighter-friendly" (grants 1 attack action or move up to your speed). Belt of Battle, see previous.

Cheers, -- N

No. I said that the thing gives DM an out if need be when players decide to abuse things. I didn't say that I'd do it. Big difference. As I keep saying: Wish requires *mature* people on both sides.

Claiming something is broken doesn't make it so. Otherwise, Mystic Theurge would be broken.

 

[Rystil Arden]

By the RAW of Wish:

A wish can produce any one of the following effects...

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Some of the things I listed are on the safe effects list. If you are going to use the perversion for effects that are listed as safe from perversion (which includes 25,000 GP in items), then you've made a houserule for Wish to help deal with the Dweomerkeeper.