Just Plain Broken

[IanB]

I don't have my B9S at hand - WMC allows you to charge through allies, but does it remove the requirement to charge to the closest square? If it does not, it will make it difficult in at least many fights to get people in position such that more than a couple can charge succesfully, especially if the target is smart about where it positions itself.

 

[Zurai]

I don't have my B9S at hand - WMC allows you to charge through allies, but does it remove the requirement to charge to the closest square?

Nope. Thus the frequently-mentioned "summon lots of Tiny creatures" response; unfortunately, Tiny summoned creatures are only found on SNA1 and SM1 and generally do 1 damage per hit at a ~+5 BAB at most. Even with massive charging bonuses and +25 damage, they rarely hit and do damage against most foes of CR17+.

 

[Nifft]

DMM can be fixed as well. You know, the standard "only if the effect is of a level you can cast normally".

That would certainly trim the maximum abuse, but I wonder if it's enough.

The other bad thing abut DMM (and [Divine] feats in general) is that they turn a heavily situational resource into a more generally useful resource.

Turn Undead is a mechanic that could be ignored in most fights. Adding your Charisma to damage? That's gonna be useful in many more fights.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

Nope. Thus the frequently-mentioned "summon lots of Tiny creatures" response; unfortunately, Tiny summoned creatures are only found on SNA1 and SM1 and generally do 1 damage per hit at a ~+5 BAB at most. Even with massive charging bonuses and +25 damage, they rarely hit and do damage against most foes of CR17+.

Indeed. Zurai has the right of it. Of course, if you're really looking for the uncapped to-hit bonus granted per charger, then it doesn't matter, though, does it?

I don't actually disagree with you about the balance of the damage of the WMC itself. If you capped the +to hit somewhere reasonable and gave the stun a standard save, it would be fine, though still quite strong even if the save is made just for the charge and the positioning.

 

[Rystil Arden]

That would certainly trim the maximum abuse, but I wonder if it's enough.

The other bad thing abut DMM (and [Divine] feats in general) is that they turn a heavily situational resource into a more generally useful resource.

Turn Undead is a mechanic that could be ignored in most fights. Adding your Charisma to damage? That's gonna be useful in many more fights.

Cheers, -- N

Hmm, with Allister's houserule, I think it most definitely isn't broken. Overpowered for its cost, perhaps still, but it won't wreck your game like breaking the meta-cap.

NOTE: There are more definitions of broken than species of finches, so I can understand if your definition is different than mine!

 

[Nifft]

No. I said that the thing gives DM an out if need be when players decide to abuse things. I didn't say that I'd do it. Big difference. As I keep saying: Wish requires *mature* people on both sides.

Claiming something is broken doesn't make it so.

Right, and claiming wish works the way you wish it worked doesn't make that so, either. Or would you like to quote the text of the spell which says the DM can do nasty things if the PC wishes for any sum of gold?

Likewise, claiming that you and your group are *mature* enough to handle broken rules doesn't make the rules less broken.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Hmm, with Allister's houserule, I think it most definitely isn't broken. Overpowered for its cost, perhaps still, but it won't wreck your game like breaking the meta-cap.

I still have to think about it a bit.

Breaking the meta-cap was the juiciest bit, of course.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Zurai]

Indeed. Zurai has the right of it. Of course, if you're really looking for the uncapped to-hit bonus granted per charger, then it doesn't matter, though, does it?

I don't actually disagree with you about the balance of the damage of the WMC itself. If you capped the +to hit somewhere reasonable and gave the stun a standard save, it would be fine, though still quite strong even if the save is made just for the charge and the positioning.

Honestly, WMC is near-impossible to use to its best effect. Even against a Colossal creature, you're not going to be able to get more than 3-4 Small or larger sized chargers, simply due to the "you must charge the nearest square" rule in addition to the "Allies within 30 feet" clause of WMC. That's a measly +8 to hit for 4 people, which isn't really all that overpowered for a 9th level maneuver.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Honestly, WMC is near-impossible to use to its best effect. Even against a Colossal creature, you're not going to be able to get more than 3-4 Small or larger sized chargers, simply due to the "you must charge the nearest square" rule in addition to the "Allies within 30 feet" clause of WMC. That's a measly +8 to hit for 4 people, which isn't really all that overpowered for a 9th level maneuver.

Remember flying, though. By 17th-level, if you can't Fly when needed, you're probably in trouble. And with flying, you can pack a whole lot more in there (and avoid terrain issues). The same great height that makes SDS more difficult against big critters also presents a weakness to WMC.

 

[Nifft]

Honestly, WMC is near-impossible to use to its best effect. Even against a Colossal creature, you're not going to be able to get more than 3-4 Small or larger sized chargers, simply due to the "you must charge the nearest square" rule in addition to the "Allies within 30 feet" clause of WMC. That's a measly +8 to hit for 4 people, which isn't really all that overpowered for a 9th level maneuver.

My worst-case scenario involves a bunch of Air Elementals (summoned a half hour or more ago using elemental swarm) and a party of dudes with fly in effect charging a Colossal foe directly overhead (or underfoot). Alternately, a disc of flying attackers (standing on end) moving towards a single flying Colossal foe.

You're basically right, restricting the maneuver to a line of attackers (rather than a disc) would probably reduce possible abuse. If no-one is flying, the maneuver may be just fine. (But at 17th level, what idiot can't fly?)

My tentative fix is to just restrict WMC to you + up to six allies. It's not a nerf on practical usage, just on theoretical abuse (which I agree is unlikely, but why tempt fate?).

Cheers, -- N