Just to clear the air, 4th edtion has been out for a few years now.

[wingsandsword]

I don't see where you get that idea. I can make a high level Hackmaster character in 15 minutes. I can make a high level 3e character in about 3 weeks.

Funny, when I've tried it was about the opposite for me, easy to make 3e characters, nigh impossible to make Hackmaster PC's.

Creating high level NPC's for my campaign, like a 12th level Blackguard, Monk (w/ campaign specific PrC), cleric (also with PrC), rogue, and Wizard (again, with PrC), I found I could create a 12th level NPC in about 10 minutes (without MI's), selecting MI's would take about another 10 to 15 minutes.

As for creating Hackmaster characters. . .the first few times I was defeated by blearily having to muddle through the books, until I finally cobbled together my first character after several hours.

The Hackmaster books are an amusing read, and are fun to pick up and look through (I even have the PHB just for amusement value), but I couldn't see it being played seriously for more than a one-shot. I know it is theoretically possible, but it seems to way, way overcomplicated and esoteric.

It's fun to read about the intricacies of Hackmaster as the Knights bicker back and forth about errata and weird rules, and it's fun to actually look through the rulebook and laugh, but learning that behemoth well enough to play it? Naah.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

That was not hyperbole. I meant it. Deciding feats, prestige classes and all takes me weeks. Now, when I actually sit down and make the character, it only takes maybe 2 days. With Hackmaster, 15 minutes or so from concept to finish.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

2 days? Are those 8 hour work-days, or is overtime involved?

 

[Mystery Man]

2 days? Are those 8 hour work-days, or is overtime involved?

It's in Hackmaster time.

 

[Henry]

2 days? Are those 8 hour work-days, or is overtime involved?

Well. he could've used some vacation and sick days, and come out ahead.

Seriously, JRR, I'm glad you've found out that 3.5 didn't work for you. Nobody needs to play a system they find crappy.

For me, if I were making a D&D character using all the available supplements out there, it WOULD take a very long time. With a Hackmaster character, if the GM allows the Hack- classes (kinda like prestige classes), it could take slightly longer, but using just the core stuff, there aren't that many choices, same as in 2nd edition AD&D. As someone said, it's all front-loaded, so once you've locked down stats, race, class, and quirks/flaws, then the rest is just "add more levels." You'll pick up some stats here and there, but there's no qualifying for Prestige classes, etc.

In the same vein, if you are just using the core 3rd edition D&D stuff, the choices are a lot simpler, too. I've written down a 5th level D&D cleric inside of 20 minutes before, from start to finish, spells picked, etc. But then, I know the rules, have most of the formulas kicking around inside my head, and could probably reconstruct the majority of the class and race choices from the PHB just from memory, because I know the formulas they used.

 

[egomann]

Well, it took me longer than two days to make my first character in HM, but I can make one in about 5 minutes (1st level no frills) to about a 1/2 hour (fully tweaked out NPC high level).

But then again I have spent the last year converting 3E modules to Hackmaster so I have a pretty good handle on the process.

The strange thing is that I have a pretty good handle on the 3E character creation process also, but I have never played IRL. I learned it all from reading the books and playing Neverwinter Nights.

But like I said, HM is frontloaded, and 3E provides more options as you go up in level. That is IMHO the primary difference in Character Creation between the two.

Actually there are a lot of good ideas in 3E that I use in my Hackmaster game.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

I could say the same of 3e - and do. I ignore the fact that I could play a half dragon/half Iron golem/celestial/feral/ranger/wizard/rogue/orde of the munchkin, yet I paid for this to be included in the rules.

Not that you can actually make something like that.... but as you said I'm sure you mean it literally as you don't use hyperbole.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

This was what killed HM for me - the sheer nonsense involved in character creation our first and only party of 3 PCs took 6 hours to make and underwent constant revisions since the layout for character creation is so poor. This was after I had photocopies of the relevant rules handy for everyone.

I should probably look into unloading my HM stuff - might be able to get some good games for it.

 

[Nikosandros]

Actually there are a lot of good ideas in 3E that I use in my Hackmaster game.

Which idead did you import?

I'm a big fan of unholy edition hybrids!

 

[Nikosandros]

Another thing... many say that HM is an 'evolution' of 2nd editon... I actually think that there's quite a bit from 1st edition. It' more like an average between the two with new elements.