Justice League: "A Better World" [Spoilers]

[takyris]

Man, I'm lovin' this season -- it's back on my TiVo season pass.

My thought reoomsday went like this:

"Okay, Doomsday, that's wonderful, didn't like him in the comics, and now he's got pants and... okay, breaking stuff, that's fun, the fight, that's kind of cool, neat sonic boom effect, I always just hated that he was so dumb and... oh, crud, he can TALK? Wow, that's funny, I expected him to be stu... oh, wait, nevermind, NOW he's stupid."

I saw it as a deliberate tweak of our expectations. In future episodes, he'll be just as dumb as he is in the comics. And to be fair, while they did name him in the credits, I don't believe he is ever named in the episode itself -- so if you really hate the concept, just assume that he wasn't actually Doomsday, just some strong guy who looked a bit like him.

Wasn't that bugged by Bats building the dimensional gateway, since Bats already did it in "The Savage Time", right?

Loved the Batman dialogue. Loved the Flash getting to be useful. Was interested in Luthor ending up helping the team, although I thought that giving him a pardon was going a bit far. It felt like a heavy-handed way of getting Luthor to be a political villain again, rather than a supervillain.

And I was watching this as a parallel of the Earth2 issue of JLA -- not exactly, of course, but as a neat new spin.

Loved the way that they didn't show Luthor's body at the beginning -- just the chair that had been cut in half by heat vision.

Loved the dummy, which made me laugh out loud.

This season is kicking butt. They've gotten the characters developed a lot better, they're letting people actually die (or doing it a bit closer to onscreen), and their dialogue has improved a bunch. Watching Bats and Wonder Woman say "Excuse me" in unison when bad guys try to kidnap the princess in the recent Vandal Savage episode made me laugh out loud.

 

[Villano]

Now to the big question here, can Spider Man make a dimensional portal if he had Mr Fantastic's plans? Well of course not, he doesn't have the money to buy the parts. Of course I bet if a writer had a good storyline idea they'd figure out a way for him to build one, and who knows what "alternate world" Spiderman is capable of? In the comic book a college lab assistant Spiderman was able to create synthetic spider webs, a feat that real world scientist have been working on for years I don't think they really worry about the details here, if they wanted Spiderman to have a dimensional portal then he would tinker one up with parts from his microwave.

Nah, I don't think Spidey could make heads or tails of Reed Richards' inventions.

Actually, that's one of the things I like about Marvel. They don't lump geniuses into one catch-all category. Spidey is a genius when it comes to chemistry. He's also handy with electronics since he constructed his Spider Tracers, but we have no idea if he really invented them or just put them together with store bought parts. After all, you can probably buy the basics of the tracer at one of those "spy" stores that you see around.

Tony "Iron Man" Stark is the one you turn to for robotics and weapons. Hank "Beast" McCoy is your biologist (at least I think that's what he does). You wouldn't ask Beast to build you a robot or Iron Man for a cure to a disease.

I consider Batman to be like Spidey. If you need something chemical or a computer, you go to him. The Mr. Fantastic stuff seems unlike him.

It reminds me of Futurama, when Bender went to Robot Hell and Leela had to play the Robot Devil in a fiddle contest to free him. Fry said he didn't know she could play the fiddle. Leela replied, "I can play the drums. How different can they be?"

You wouldn't want a nuclear physist performing brain surgery on you, would you?

ahhhh--I liked it.
It was fun

Yes there have been nitpicky details you could drive a bus through if you wanted to, but it is still a pretty good show IMO.

They did sort of hand wave away the idea that Bats built the portal but it did come up. His response was basically "there's nothing else to do now" and they had said before that he had been cooped up in the cave for quite some time.

The really glaring nail in the coffin for those that would like to point out flaws and such was the end, with Luthor stopping after using his ray on the J.Lords and not turning it on the J.League. Although with Batman there it Was a smart idea to hand it over, since Bats has no powers Luthor would have just gotten his own butt kicked.
I'm wondering if the power disruption was permanent or temporary, and if it will ever matter.

But over all I agree it was another great episode and I liked it a lot, So far this season has been pretty enjoyable!

I didn't like the Super Power Disruptor. It sort of imbodies what I mean by "dues-ex-machina". It can take the power away from both Superman and GL even though GL's power comes from a gadget, his ring. And, even though it can stop Superman (which means it'll take down virtually every bad guy around) we'll never hear of it again.

I have to say I really like the Justice Lords costumes! Well most of them anyhow.
I though that Wonder Woman and Manhunter looked a little better, and Superman and Hawkgirl looked a Lot better.
Green Lantern and Bats I prefer in their "regular" costume--

Personally, I liked Supes and Bats. I like the originals of the others better.

Reed is definitively the biggest scientific brain of Marvel and certainly smarter than any of DCs people. He would be head of Star Labs in no time!
Probably find a way to cure Superman of being vulnerable to kryptonite too!

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. I mean, how long has the poor Thing been waiting for that cure?

In the DC universe, the only guy I can think that can match him, outside of the New Gods, is Brainiac.

 

[WizarDru]

In the DC universe, the only guy I can think that can match him, outside of the New Gods, is Brainiac.

You've forgotten the single guiding principle of DC comics since 'The Dark Knight Returns'...with enough time and resources, Batman can defeat ANYONE. You may argue it's not the case, but DC certainly has shown it time and again to be true. Having an entire multi-billion international consortium of divested technological interests certainly helps...just ask Luthor.

Personally, one thing I enjoy about Justice League (although less so lately) is that is ISN'T so bogged down in continuity, and that it's written so my kids can enjoy it as much as I do*. Marvel wasn't, once....but that was in the 60s and 70s. Look at Spiderman or the X-men's continuity, now. Yikes.


(*-Obviously that's the price I pay this season...I can't let my kids see most of the episodes this season, as they involve some really dark or nasty subjects.)

 

[paulewaug]

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. I mean, how long has the poor Thing been waiting for that cure?

In the DC universe, the only guy I can think that can match him, outside of the New Gods, is Brainiac.

Good point!
Although a while ago one of the FF writers did try to explain that it seemed Reed couldn't cure Ben because deep down inside Ben really Wanted to be the Thing.
And they did cure him for a while but eventually (after feeling useless) he went back to 'rocky' again.

(Also...how many times has Reed lost his own powers?! Seems like a few over the years....)

So between several writers taking turns on the book Reed would try to cure Supes, explain that deep down Supes really Wanted to be vulnerable to Kryptonite, and then later cure him of it. And then of course find later that he had become vulnerable again...
Reed was probably just making up crap to cover his in-ability to cure Ben!


hmmmm...I think I am finding a reason to like Plastic Man over Mr. "Fantastic"

That's a good point about Gl and his 'powers' maybe what the beam actually did was cut off the area of your brain that helps you focus on using your powers. Assuming a "frontal lobe" concentration is required for most any character...it's not a "power disruptor" but a "Mental disruptor” sort of like J.Lord-Supes quickie Lobotomies!

Hey as an aside....
Did anybody see the "Duck Dodgers" where he gets GL's (Hal Jordan version too!) costume and ring?!
That was actually pretty good! hahah!!

 

[Villano]

So between several writers taking turns on the book Reed would try to cure Supes, explain that deep down Supes really Wanted to be vulnerable to Kryptonite, and then later cure him of it. And then of course find later that he had become vulnerable again...

LOL! Good one!

Actually, it's more on the nose than you probably expected. Substitute "Superman" and "Kryptonite" with "Martian Manhunter" and "fire" and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Rackhir]

(*-Obviously that's the price I pay this season...I can't let my kids see most of the episodes this season, as they involve some really dark or nasty subjects.)

Granted I'm not a parent so I'm not as sensitve to these things, but aside from the Justice Lords episode I'm not really sure what you wouldn't want the kids to watch? Even with the Justice Lords, I would rather have children learn that violence has consequences and changes you as well, rather than the "Oh, look there's their parachute" kind of violence in most american cartoons.

 

[WizarDru]

Granted I'm not a parent so I'm not as sensitve to these things, but aside from the Justice Lords episode I'm not really sure what you wouldn't want the kids to watch? Even with the Justice Lords, I would rather have children learn that violence has consequences and changes you as well, rather than the "Oh, look there's their parachute" kind of violence in most american cartoons.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but as you're right, you aren't sensitive to these issues. Simply put, you don't really have the same level of experience. Prior to having kids of my own, I didn't, either.

The first thing you have to realize is that we're not talking about 10 year-olds here, we're talking 3 and 6. The second thing you have to understand is the moral universe children live in, and what they're capable of grasping with their emotional and mental toolset.

Let's look at some recent episodes:

"Only a Dream": Now, I can only imagine you missed this one, or it slipped your mind. It scared me...it would terrify my kids. Let's look at some simple details, shall we? Superman kills Lois Lane with heat vision, destroys Metropolis and the daily planet and crushes Jimmy Olsen. The villian causes his ex-girlfriend to lapse into a horrific nightmare, from which she never wakes. The villians peels his skin off in the dream world to turn into a leering skull-faced horror. The Flash is attacked by pirahna-children. Hawkgirl IS BURIED ALIVE. In a coffin, by a laughing madman. Now consider that the troll from Harry Potter and Voldemort's disembodied face gave my 6 year-old nightmares when she was 5, and that my 3 year-old found the Goblin King too scary from Labyrinth....as would most kids of their age.

"Tabula Rasa" features a dead professor who's seen several times on-screen. That sort of thing needs explaining to young kids, as does Luthor's manipulation of Amazo, the complicated relationship that Luthor has with Mercy and J'onn's going slightly insane. Oh, and then there's the brutal beating Luthor recieves, and the cold, calculated "I'll blow your head off" sequence. Kids don't live in a universe where anything like that makes sense. It all needs explaining, and can be disturbing and frightening. A 12 year old understands that the universe can be unpredictable and that there are varying shades of grey....a 3 year-old only understands the concept of 'good guys' and 'bad guys', where the 'bad guys' are naughty or mean. The idea of Luthor manipulating a vulnerable and naive child being, that the kids could sympathize with...that's just out of their mental framework to understand.

"Maid of Honor" is not too bad, as the recent crop of episodes go...but it has some elements, too. Vandal Savage poisons the king, causing him to have a stroke. Considering my father just had one too, I may be a little sensitive to it...but it's still a disturbing image for a child. Especially since there is no happy ending, here. There are deaths, too, though the aircraft carrier gets off easily. Vandall Savage rising out of the ground is a pretty frightening image for a child, too, while we're at it.

"Hearts and Minds" has people dying by the truckload and shipload, and lots of sexual overtones that I didn't mind, but I don't feel like trying to explain to my kids. I mean, impotence jokes, brass bikinis and sexual tension doesn't make much sense to a 1st grader. Not to mention people violently turning into plants, electro-shock torture and the implied threat of rape towards Hawkgirl from Despero. And the men turning into trees was weird, but could be disturbing, too.

"A Better World" Second only to Doctor Destiny's episode in scariness to a little kid, and potentially more damaging, as we see heroes being very UNheroic. It would be very hard for my 3 year-old to understand why Superman has become mean and scary, or why there's only one Flash. Try explaining why the heroes are fighting each other, or what Superman did to President Lex, and why they're fighting the police and what's wrong with all those people at the Arkham place, anyway?

I could go on, but you should get the idea, by now. This isn't a case of showing the consequences of violence. For one, these shows don't really drive that point home... in point of fact, they send a mixed message on that point. And my kids aren't old enough to grasp those points yet, regardless. They don't understand the concept of death the way an adult does and they live in a simplified moral universe.

Teen Titans is much more their speed, and I'm glad to let them watch that, instead. They can grasp that Slade is bad and Robin is good, and can understand the behaviors that make them that way. So when we reach the episode where Robin has to act as the bad guy, they need a little explanation, but they get it. The episode where Robin creates an alternate persona was more confusing than the two-parter 'The Apprentice', because my kids can understand that Robin is being made to be bad, becuase Slade will hurt his friends...that's easier to follow than an obsessive desire to hunt down a bad guy.

And the Mad Mod is just silly. Which my son liked a lot.

 

[paulewaug]

"Only a Dream":
yeah that was a pretty intense episode!


"Tabula Rasa"
another heavy issue epi. with the death of the prof and luthor's manipulations,

"Maid of Honor" . Vandal Savage poisons the king, causing him to have a stroke... there is no happy ending, here. There are deaths, too, though the aircraft carrier gets off easily. Vandal Savage rising out of the ground is a pretty frightening image for a child, too, while we're at it.

Not to forget party girls!
And yes, Vandal is a very bad man!

"Hearts and Minds" has people dying by the truckload and shipload, and lots of sexual overtones ...Not to mention people violently turning into plants, electro-shock torture and the implied threat of rape towards Hawkgirl from Despero. And the men turning into trees was weird, but could be disturbing, too.

And some issues of racism iirc....because of Why Despero was run out of town in the first place... also an edgy episode because of the reasons you mentioned, And a very good one due to the lack of "the big two" (Supes and Bats)

"A Better World" what Superman did to President Lex, and why they're fighting the police and what's wrong with all those people at the Arkham place, anyway?

nicely handled in part by keeping the Luthor part off screen,
but yeah this stuff is a bit much for truly young children...maybe they (cartoon network) should suck it up and take it a bit further and move it too adult swim.
Then the "non-children" can have the "edgy" they want and the parents don't have to worry about their kids being disturbed by a "cartoon."
(Of course this won't happen. I think this is a stance that has cause WB problems in the past. The excellent Batman series tried to tackle a few "grown up" issues like types of abuse and using "real guns" rather than GI Joe laser guns...but they got freaked out because kids watched it too and changed the direction of the show. They try to appeal to both "big kids" and real kids.
Complicated!!

Teen Titans is much more their speed, and I'm glad to let them watch that, instead. They can grasp that Slade is bad and Robin is good, and can understand the behaviors that make them that way. So when we reach the episode where Robin has to act as the bad guy, they need a little explanation, but they get it. The episode where Robin creates an alternate persona was more confusing than the two-parter 'The Apprentice', because my kids can understand that Robin is being made to be bad, because Slade will hurt his friends...that's easier to follow than an obsessive desire to hunt down a bad guy.

And the Mad Mod is just silly. Which my son liked a lot.

I love Teen Titans!!
once you figure out that most of the time the show is not as serious as JL is its funny!! I find it to be more "fun" than the J.League.
Of course J.League is not as bad as DBZ considering the level of violence, but at least that is a given up front that in Any episode of DBZ there will be some serious rump-kicking!

Hey WizarDru, do you ever watch "According to Jim" the episode last night was close to this subject. Jim took his 2 daughters to see a techno-thriller that ends up scary them pretty well. The best part was at the end of the show when he is explaining to them how the scary robot person in the movie is just an actor and it's not real.
So they ask him about the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny. He tells them that basically the "good guys" are real and bad the guys are make believe.
It was a cute episode,
reminded me of this.

 

[jdavis]

Justice League is definatly for older kids. My kids don't care for it but they are girls so it's to be expected (7 and 12 years old). It's amazing how fast all that changes though, the 12 year old has been a big fan of horror movies since she was 7 and her mother (my ex) let her watch Scream. Now at 12 she doesn't even flinch, we watched 13 Ghost and she thought it was a little too silly and was pointing out plot problems (of which there were many). She tried to get me to buy her a Bride of Chucky doll last weekend (although she did admit it was a little creepy). She has a copy of the original Halloween at home (she got when she was 8) that she has nearly worn out. The younger one's not as bad but she still hasn't given up on Pokemon and that's more scary than the horror movies. Things change realy quick when they started going to school, they just don't stay cute and innocent after 1st grade and I've got one closing in on being a teenager now, it's really getting bad.

 

[takyris]

Hey, Dru,

Hadn't thought of it in those ways -- but yeah, if I had a child, I'd be very leery of letting them watch it at 3 or 6. 10 or so sounds about right, but that's a completely arbitrary number pulled out of my back pocket... What's it rated? TV Y-7 or Y-14 or something?