Kara-Tur and Zakhara, are they going to be released as portions of FR?

[3catcircus]

BOOYEAH! That's good enough for me!

My one question here is, while its obvious what they're talking about when they mention the Great Wheel, in what context do they mention Greyhawk? Is it insinuating that Greyhawk is now considered to be on an alternate Prime Material Plane?

It kind of amazes me every time WoTC tries to close the lid of the Pandora's Box that is cosmology in D&D. Spelljammer already established that Greyhawk and Toril are on the same prime (as is Krynn), but in different "solar systems," or "galaxies." Now, they want to say "No, no - that's not the case - that stuff we published and don't support is like it never existed at all." Likewise with the 2nd-edition FR cosmology identical to Greyhawk and identical to Planescape.

My solution is to Rule Zero it - the FR cosmology *is* The Great Wheel cosmology, skewed by the difference in time and space for observers on Toril vs. Greyhawk (kinda like looking at a straw stuck in a soda glass- the straw appears to "bend" to the observer due to the difference in optical properties between liquid and air...)

 

[JPL]

Huh? Since when did the *continents* of Zakahara, Kara-Tur and Maztica become *planes* in a cosmology?

He means the planes associated with each of those cultures' respective cosmologies, not the lands themselves.

Linking the Realms to the Great Wheel, Greyhawk, and these various other comsmologies is the sort of thing that's very satisfying to those who like it and very easy to ignore for those who don't.

 

[jester47]

I use (Iuz?) FR with the great wheel cosmology. I use Greyhawk as a replacement for Kara-Tur, and the Wilderlands as a replacement for Maztica and Zakhara. Sail due east of Waterdeep and past Evermeet, you will eventually reach the coast of the Flanaess. Sail SW from Amn and eventually you will go into the southern hemisphere, into the temperate zone that must exist south of the Flanaess if greyhawk is simply on the other side of the continent. Got too far east and you come across a sea of dust. And then five more dust seas, until you reach the seventh one which is THE sea of Dust. The gods become more regional (a concept that was originally part of the realms) with merging and splitting pantheons. Maztica would then just be a name that the Amnians gave to the land, much like America is named for Amerigo Vespucci. Perhaps I need to create an Tethyrian cartographer named Maztic. The part of the Wilderlands that the Amnians are exploiting would be the eastern valley of the ancients.

I do this because I am not fond of the concept of historical equivalencies in fantasy. I try to keep my D&D as non-historical as possible. However this does not mean that there arnt similarities. Steppe people will find the horse very useful (comanchees and mongols), bedouin dress has a reason for looking the way it does. Societies that have metalurgy are going to make armor and weapons out of metal. Thus there are similarities to the history of our world, but it is not our world. So the hoarde resembles the mongols, western faerun and the flanaess resemble western europe. There are enough deserts to offer you all the arabian nights style adventuring that you might want.

I am still contemplating making my world less of a planet and more a plane, some places are relative to each other, like the Faerun/Flanaess concept. Other places (say Krynn or Blackmoor) are further removed. That is that all game worlds are on the prime material. Its just that a bigger difference in concept indicates a bigger difference in geographic location relative to the other settings. Thus, one could sail for infinity in one direction and never circumnavigate the globe, simply because there is no globe. In this case the prime material would be enless in all directions, making it more of a "plane" than a planet. In this case, ice caps become evewn more of a mystery.

Aaron.

 

[Alzrius]

It kind of amazes me every time WoTC tries to close the lid of the Pandora's Box that is cosmology in D&D. Spelljammer already established that Greyhawk and Toril are on the same prime (as is Krynn), but in different "solar systems," or "galaxies." Now, they want to say "No, no - that's not the case - that stuff we published and don't support is like it never existed at all." Likewise with the 2nd-edition FR cosmology identical to Greyhawk and identical to Planescape.

Actually, the crystal spheres are definately solar systems, not galaxies.

That said, TSR/WotC did provide an in-game explanation for these cosmological changes, that being Die Vecna Die.

As it stands now, most everything is skewed. I'm not sure if the PGtF insinuates whether or not GH and FR are on different Material Planes now (I'll get my copy tomorrow), but I wouldn't be surprised. Pages 117-118 of the Dragonlance Campaign Setting would seem to be indicating that Krynn (which has its own cosmology) is probably in an alternate Material Plane also. Likewise, the preview of Eberron's cosmology outrightly states that it's in another Material Plane. One universe is now many...

My solution is to Rule Zero it - the FR cosmology *is* The Great Wheel cosmology, skewed by the difference in time and space for observers on Toril vs. Greyhawk (kinda like looking at a straw stuck in a soda glass- the straw appears to "bend" to the observer due to the difference in optical properties between liquid and air...)

And while that is a workable idea, especially with a wealth of 2E material to draw upon, those of us who (for better or for worse) are concerned with officialdom and canonity will continue to bitch and moan about it.

 

[herald]

When the developers were interviewed for the new FR champaign book they did stat that FR and Greyhawk are in two totally differant cosmologies.

FR now uses the tree and Greyhawk uses the wheel. Any demon, devil or outsider that has a common name is considered a differant individual that just might be just like its counterpart, but differant.

 

[Pseudonym]

FR now uses the tree and Greyhawk uses the wheel. Any demon, devil or outsider that has a common name is considered a differant individual that just might be just like its counterpart, but differant.

So what does this mean for deities who are worshiped in both cosmologies? Are there two Moradins and two Lolths now?

 

[Davelozzi]

The gods become more regional (a concept that was originally part of the realms) with merging and splitting pantheons.

What makes you think so? It seems to me that it was always just the Fearunian pantheon until Scott Bennie wrote Old Empires and threw in the Egyptian and Mesopotamian gods. Sure the old grey box metiones Tyr and Mieliki and others coming over from other worlds, but I don't recall any sense that once in the Realms they didn't just merge right into the Faerunian pantheon.

Maztica would then just be a name that the Amnians gave to the land, much like America is named for Amerigo Vespucci. Perhaps I need to create an Tethyrian cartographer named Maztic...I do this because I am not fond of the concept of historical equivalencies in fantasy.

Is that intentional irony?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Is that intentional irony?

Amnerica

 

[Kae'Yoss]

BOOYEAH! That's good enough for me!

My one question here is, while its obvious what they're talking about when they mention the Great Wheel, in what context do they mention Greyhawk? Is it insinuating that Greyhawk is now considered to be on an alternate Prime Material Plane?

Yea, Oerth is its own material now. "The Plane of Shadow connects Toril's Material Plane with those of other worlds, including the default world for the D&D core books - the World of Greyhawk."
It goes on and says that portals to other Material Planes almost certainly exist and points to such connections as Spells named after Greyhawk wizards (Otto, Otiluke, Tenser and Bigby are named)

 

[Alzrius]

Yea, Oerth is its own material now. "The Plane of Shadow connects Toril's Material Plane with those of other worlds, including the default world for the D&D core books - the World of Greyhawk."
It goes on and says that portals to other Material Planes almost certainly exist and points to such connections as Spells named after Greyhawk wizards (Otto, Otiluke, Tenser and Bigby are named)

Yes, I finally got my own copy, though it doesn't, as you said, explicitly mention the Great Wheel.

So, as it stands now, apparently every campaign world is in it's own Material Plane, with its own cosmology, and you can get from one to the other via the Plane of Shadow.

Originally posted by Herald
Any demon, devil or outsider that has a common name is considered a differant individual that just might be just like its counterpart, but differant.

Can you link to where this is said? Because insofar as deities worshipped in multiple cosmologies goes, existing sources seem to agree that they're the same deity.

The "Behind the Curtain: Same Deity, Different World" sidebar on page 41 of Faiths & Pantheons says "Most campaign worlds have their own pantheons, and rarely does the same deity ever appear in more than one world setting. One of the few exceptions to this rule is Lolth, who appears in both the core D&D pantheon and the Faerunian pantheon in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Though her history differs between the two settings, she remains very much the same deity." (emphasis mine)

Likewise, the "Divine Spellcasting and Alternate Material Planes" sidebar on page 44 of the Manual of the Planes says (in regards to a deity of one Material Plane finding out about another Material Plane) "Such transplants may be responsible for the same deity appearing on different worlds." (again, emphasis mine)

And finally, Deities & Demigods is silent altogether on the issue of the same deities appearing in different cosmologies. So, that's two products for and zero against the idea that the same god in different cosmologies is the same deity, and not two different versions of that god.