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Kara-Tur vs Rokugan

Which setting do you prefer for your Oriental Adventures

  • Kara-Tur

    Votes: 56 58.3%
  • Rokugan

    Votes: 20 20.8%
  • Uh... why not Dragon Empires?

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • Lemoncurry

    Votes: 19 19.8%

  • Total voters
    96

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Your view is wrong and designed to cause trouble. Please stop. It's offensive to run around pretending to be offended all of the time.
First: The Associated Press Style Guide lists the term as "do not use". The Webster's New World College Dictionary says the term is, "now often regarded as a term of disparagement.” So, he's not wrong. In the US, the term is often considered offensive.

Second: If you think someone's actually making trouble, report it. Please do not try to junior-mod in the future - since you don't have the authority to back it up, this becomes an ego match, and that rarely ends well for anyone.
 

Desdichado

Adventurer
Folks, burdening a discussion thread with arguing with moderation is not constructive. Don't do it.
I know it might seem inconceivable to you, but asking someone to stop race-baiting can be done without wanting to "junior-mod". It's called "basic social skills" to be able to talk to someone without having to run to Mommy to tell her to deal with everything we don't like.

And no; the AP style guide and Websters are both wrong. They are at best two, three or four places removed from the actual discussion,, but I remember first-hand watching Edward Said come up with the idea that "Orientalism" was offensive out of thin air. It is nothing more than cultural vandalism and demagoguery, and nobody ever really took that seriously; it was a fringe idea far outside the mainstream of cultural anthropology and cultural studies. And for that matter, it didn't have anything to do with the subject matter of Oriental Adventures: Edward Said was a Palestinian, and he used the word "oriental" to refer to the Middle East, not the Far East.

As historian Dr. Nikki Keddie (UCLA) said: "I think that there has been a tendency in the Middle East [studies] field to adopt the word "Orientalism" as a generalized swear-word, essentially referring to people who take the "wrong" position on the Arab–Israeli dispute, or to people who are judged "too conservative". It has nothing to do with whether they are good or not good in their disciplines. So, "Orientalism", for many people, is a word that substitutes for thought, and enables people to dismiss certain scholars and their works. I think that is too bad. It may not have been what Edward Saïd meant, at all, but the term has become a kind of slogan."

She's being too nice and giving Said benefit of the doubt that he clearly has not earned, and in fact has eroded through his book Orientalism. He absolutely did mean that, and it's very clear that that's what he meant. The entire discussion about "is Oriental racist" is based on race-baiting and false pretenses. It was dishonest rhetoric from the get-go.
 

gyor

Adventurer
I know it might seem inconceivable to you, but asking someone to stop race-baiting can be done without wanting to "junior-mod". It's called "basic social skills" to be able to talk to someone without having to run to Mommy to tell her to deal with everything we don't like.

And no; the AP style guide and Websters are both wrong. They are at best two, three or four places removed from the actual discussion,, but I remember first-hand watching Edward Said come up with the idea that "Orientalism" was offensive out of thin air. It is nothing more than cultural vandalism and demagoguery, and nobody ever really took that seriously; it was a fringe idea far outside the mainstream of cultural anthropology and cultural studies. And for that matter, it didn't have anything to do with the subject matter of Oriental Adventures: Edward Said was a Palestinian, and he used the word "oriental" to refer to the Middle East, not the Far East.

As historian Dr. Nikki Keddie (UCLA) said: "I think that there has been a tendency in the Middle East [studies] field to adopt the word "Orientalism" as a generalized swear-word, essentially referring to people who take the "wrong" position on the Arab–Israeli dispute, or to people who are judged "too conservative". It has nothing to do with whether they are good or not good in their disciplines. So, "Orientalism", for many people, is a word that substitutes for thought, and enables people to dismiss certain scholars and their works. I think that is too bad. It may not have been what Edward Saïd meant, at all, but the term has become a kind of slogan."

She's being too nice and giving Said benefit of the doubt that he clearly has not earned, and in fact has eroded through his book Orientalism. He absolutely did mean that, and it's very clear that that's what he meant. The entire discussion about "is Oriental racist" is based on race-baiting and false pretenses. It was dishonest rhetoric from the get-go.
Wow very informed and interesting, do have like a history degree or just a keen interest?
 

gyor

Adventurer
At the risk of being on-topic, I'd prefer Kara-Tur. Rokugan is cool, but it's relationship to L5R carries a lot of assumptions with it. Kara-Tur feels like it's easier to drop in something new and say "it's D&D" and have it all work.
For me I'm FR fan and it's a region in vital need of updating as much has happened since 2e.
 

Vyas

Villager
Kara-Tur is superior, in my opinion, because I happen to own an AD&D Oriental Adventures book and can't be bothered to find other versions.
 

gyor

Adventurer
Since Kara-Tur is in the Forgotten Realms, and therefore allowed on the DM's Guild, there's a decent amount of third-party 5E resources for it.
I still think we are getting a Kara Tur book. Maybe called Adventures Guide to Kara Tur.
 

Samloyal23

Explorer
Forgotten Realms definitely needs and Indian/South Asian campaign setting to fill the gap between Kara-tur and Al-Qadim. Throw in Rokugan, why not? Let's have a setting both as diverse and as rich as possible.
 

gyor

Adventurer
Forgotten Realms definitely needs and Indian/South Asian campaign setting to fill the gap between Kara-tur and Al-Qadim. Throw in Rokugan, why not? Let's have a setting both as diverse and as rich as possible.
Because WotC doesn't have the rights to Rokugan anymore and tossing Rokugan into Toril would give it 3 different fantasy Japans, it already has 2.
 

LuisCarlos17f

Explorer
I love the clans and factions from Rokugan, but Kara-Tar has got more options about races and no-samurai characters.

My doubt is about the impact of the return, or creation of new, classes (psionic, incarnum and martial adepts). The martial adepts (swordsage, warblade or crusader) in OA could be like the psionic in Dark Sun. I don't want to imagine if I am a DM and some player wants in our OA campaign any martial adept class from "Path of War" by Dreamscarred Press (SRD found in internet).

We have got the hengeyokai as PC race but I suggest a new race of cute "kemonomimi" (animal ears) because this little furry humanoids are very popular now in some Asian MMORPGs. I like the shen like feytouched cousins of elves, but not their racial traits. A hengeyokai with shapesifter powers could break the balance of power, for example as bird could fly until the window in the top of the tower, or go throward the room without touching floor and walls to avoid some traps, or with special senses as smell could to help to ranger to hunt, as hound.

Maybe the right hook to sell more books could be a videogame, but this would be a more a year project. This would need a lot of time. Other option could be an amerimanga comic.

* I am Spanish, and "far orient" is a politically correct expression.

* Any canon information about "oriental continents" in other D&D worlds? And I don't want Kamikawa from Magic: the Gathering as example.
 
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gyor

Adventurer
I love the clans and factions from Rokugan, but Kara-Tar has got more options about races and no-samurai characters.

My doubt is about the impact of the return, or creation of new, classes (psionic, incarnum and martial adepts). The martial adepts (swordsage, warblade or crusader) in OA could be like the psionic in Dark Sun. I don't want to imagine if I am a DM and some player wants in our OA campaign any martial adept class from "Path of War" by Dreamscarred Press (SRD found in internet).

We have got the hengeyokai as PC race but I suggest a new race of cute "kemonomimi" (animal ears) because this little furry humanoids are very popular now in some Asian MMORPGs. I like the shen like feytouched cousins of elves, but not their racial traits. A hengeyokai with shapesifter powers could break the balance of power, for example as bird could fly until the window in the top of the tower, or go throward the room without touching floor and walls to avoid some traps, or with special senses as smell could to help to ranger to hunt, as hound.

Maybe the right hook to sell more books could be a videogame, but this would be a more a year project. This would need a lot of time. Other option could be an amerimanga comic.

* I am Spanish, and "far orient" is a politically correct expression.

* Any canon information about "oriental continents" in other D&D worlds? And I don't want Kamikawa from Magic: the Gathering as example.
I think Ravenloft has a few Asian themed Domains and Darklords and the Vedic Hindu and Shinto Pantheons have been covered in Planescape. That I believe is it.
 

LuisCarlos17f

Explorer
We have to be careful about Vedic Pantheon because millions of Hindues still believe they are real. I remember the controversy about that Xena's episode with Hindue gods, and they tried to be polite.

An interesting idea could be the demiplane of dread (Ravenloft) suffering a second grand conjuction and some domains are now in some regions of material planes.

* Are nezumi from Rokugan a PC race for Kara-Tur? They are in Kamigawa (Magic: the Gathering)

* We are in 2019, and now the influence of manganime is too strong for the new generation of DM who wanted to play with OA. You can bet many PCs will be clones of Naruto or Son Goku. (Do you remember the manganime "Karasu Tengu Kabuto"?).
 

gyor

Adventurer
I point out there are a lot of people who believe the Grecoroman Pantheon, Norse Pantheon, Egyptian Pantheon, ect..., and I'd be one of them. As long as you the designers don't try and be insulting, its okay. Lots of people use Christianity in their fiction and RPGs.

The only reason a few Hindu's got upset about the Xenia thing is because they didn't like a Hindu God linked to characters seen as Bisexual, so only the socially conservative element freaked out, not representive. Hindu's have never flipped over D&D, even though Hindu Gods have covered by several editions.

Plus this time they will likely have cultural consultants.
 
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