Karmic Strike: Undefeatable.......?

[Bloodweaver1]

“Karmic Strike: You can make an AoO against an opponent that hits you in melee. On your action, you choose to take a -4 penalty to your AC in exchange for the ability to make an AoO against any creature that makes a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against you….”



OK... I have done some serious research and as far as I can tell this particular feat is IMHO the best feat in the entire D&D setting, hands down. There is no feat (at least none that I can find) that directly prevents this feat from happening. The only thing that I can think of is a creature that has a nature reach or a reach weapon.

This feat in combination with Combat Reflexes makes any melee character 10x better. Especially a Monk!!! (Don’t even get me started how this breaks that class). I mean seriously… with this feat not only am I going to smack you up but when its your turn to hit me I am going to smack you again. Now if you take some feats out of the Oriental Campaign, such as one that lets you make a free trip attack if an opponent misses you (I forget the name) and the Knock Down. Both feats which have yet to receive a 3.5 updated (as there is almost no need of it).

You have now have made a melee character that no matter what the opponent does, they are going to have resist a trip attempt or take damage. Is there any way to stop this monster besides just not fighting it or have it surrounded by archers and pike-men?

 

[Bryan898]

Karmic strike is pretty powerful, but I'm pretty sure a frenzied beserker or hulking hurler would wipe the floor with em. Anything with a rather high AC could put up a good fight against a monk built in said fashion. A high level cleric or druid, or even wizard would also put up a good fight. Every build/ class has a weakness, 3.5 does a very good job of that IMO.

 

[Darkness]

Both feats which have yet to receive a 3.5 updated (as there is almost no need of it).

Though the way AoOs work in 3.5, Karmic Strike is now better than ever. If you have Combat Reflexes, of course.

 

[FireLance]

Welcome to the boards, Bloodweaver1.

If the character does not have Improved Unarmed Strike, disarm or sunder can quickly reduce his effectiveness.

Otherwise, grappling is one way to ensure that the character can't take AOOs.

Furthermore, AOOs are only effective if they hit and deal damage. High AC or high DR can negate most of the power of this feat.

In addition, heavy hitters may come out ahead by simply trading blows.

Finally, why should anybody feel the need to take on this character, on his own terms, in melee combat? Someone wants to lower his AC by 4, I've got plenty of ranged attacks and ranged touch spells to show him the error of his ways.

 

[Felon]

You have now have made a melee character that no matter what the opponent does, they are going to have resist a trip attempt or take damage. Is there any way to stop this monster besides just not fighting it or have it surrounded by archers and pike-men?

Well, one could just try having a good armor class. You're making sound like every counterattack hits automatically. I'm not sure what sort of "way to stop" this you think there should be. It's a melee attack. You'd stop it like you'd stop any melee attack.

Sounds to me like the character using Karmic Strike has to take a pounding himself, and with the AC penalty makes it easy for the opponent to make use of Power Attack or fighting defensively.

Also, what is so unfeasible or uncommon about using reach, ranged weapons, spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities against a character?

 

[Hawken]

Grapple prevents it, or it should depending on your DM's interpretation of the rule. Grappling is not an attack as such, it is just grabbing on to the person. The grapple check is not an attack roll but a grapple check using the same mechanic as a melee touch attack. Even if the DM decides that the grapple attempt qualifies as an actual melee touch attack, the grapple still gets resolved first. So, while grappling, you pin the subject and once pinned, he is immobile and thus unable to make the AoO.

There are some downsides to this as well. Taken by Monks, Rogues or other "lightweight" fighters, they are going to lose while standing there trading blows with the power attacking fighter or barbarian, or even if its a sneak attacking rogue or whatever. The feat is a good idea in theory, and in a one-on-one duel, its fine, but in a battle with multiple enemies, the person with that feat isn't going to want to take the penalty to AC just to trade blows when multiple enemies may be attacking him--he'll go down fast while inflicting minimal damage to several targets.

Also, for the grapple, even if he gets one AoO on the guy grappling him, once the grapple is made, his feat is useless. Establishing a pin right off negates the feat by immobilizing him, leaving you free to use the rest of your attacks to automatically damage him without retaliation. Get that boy grappled and pinned by someone with armor spikes and that's D6 + Str + whatever else damage per attack automatically, no attack roll needed. Then when his turn comes around he has to spend his attacks trying to break the grapple instead of attacking you. And if he keeps the feat "on", it doesn't help since once you've got him grappled, you can automatically inflict damage without having to make an attack roll.

And the Improved Grapple feat negates this feat anyway. Very first sentence in the description, "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make an attack roll to start a grapple." So, the Karmic Strike may work on a regular grapple attack, but if you have Improved Grapple, he won't get to pop you when you grab him. Improved Trip and Improved Bull Rush work the same way.

The feat you mention with the free trip on the missed attack is Defensive Throw. You have to have Dex 13+, Improved Unarmed STrike, Dodge, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes. And it is only useful against the focus of your Dodge feat. So, against one opponent, fine; but against two or more, it's not going to help you.

And like you mentioned, reach weapons, ranged attacks and spells overcome that feat no problem. So, it is a potent feat, but its a far sight from being the best feat.

 

[Timeboxer]

It's good, but it's not that good.

Now, combine it with Deft Opportunist and that one feat that lets you take a five-foot step every time you make an AoO, and that strikes me as potent. Getting a chance to do damage to your opponent every time they damage you in melee is good, but stepping away every time they hit you so that they can never get a full attack off on you is probably very very good.

 

[Kelleris]

Huh. If Karmic Strike had no prerequisites, it would be very good. As it is, it's merely a solid choice.

Why? It (IIRC) requires Dodge. Dodge is a terrible feat, but more than that, it's counterproductive. With Karmic Strike you want to get hit, or the feat's useless, and Dodge works against that. Even worse, the Mobility-Spring Attack chain (the only other reason to take Dodge) requires a combat style that's directly antithetical to one that utilizes Karmic Strike.

 

[Bront]

Well to fully capitolize on it, you need at least 2 feats, (It, and Combat Reflexes), supposedly it requires Dodge too, so you need at least 3 feats, AND a high dex, and, idealy, the ability to take a lot of punishment.

The AoOs don't cancel the attack against you, so you only get them if you survive. Plus, you don't get them vs ranged combat or ranged targeted spells, so good archers with Precice shot or mages with ray spells will eat up the PC. Also, this eats up your AoO's so you can't use them for other things like attacking monsters charging through the lines.

Is it cool? yes. Can you have fun with it? yes. Is it overpowered? Not teribly.

 

[moritheil]

Enlarge - hard to trip
Stoneskin - hard to damage
Fireshield - you sure you want to hit me more often?

I fail to see how this feat is nastier than, say, Power Attack in the right hands. Or Improved Sunder. You build a char with that feat and I'll take yours on with an identical one with Improved Sunder instead.

Sure, if you have multiple feats you could get all of those AND Karmic Strike, but by then you run into caster enemies with the above spells.

You have now have made a melee character that no matter what the opponent does, they are going to have resist a trip attempt or take damage. Is there any way to stop this monster besides just not fighting it or have it surrounded by archers and pike-men?