Karmic Strike: Undefeatable.......?

[John Q. Mayhem]

It'd be really cool to have a rogue/fighter that combined Karmic Strike with Flick of the Wrist.

 

[Bill Muench]

Hmm, I just had an interesting idea. Combine Karmic Strike and Elusive Target's Cause Overreach ability. When you leave a threatened square:

• If they miss, you get a trip attempt
• If they hit, you get an AoO (which can be used for a trip and follow-up attack if you have Improved Trip)

As a guy with a Dervish with mad AC and a good trip check who qualifies for the feat, I may have to think about taking it...

 

[Evilhalfling]

So you take 3 feats for the privlage of multiple counterstikes - since you actually have to get hit for this to work it seems fair. It would be very effective vs other non-grappling monks (lots of small damage attacks) or some animals, but there high strength may mince you even as you kill them.
Now a Psiwarrior with biofeedback - or other types of DR this could be great.

 

[Arravis]

I thought Deft Opportunist only gave you a +4 to hit on AoO's and that's it. From Complete Adventurer, right?

 

[Shin Okada]

Slightly off-topic, but I wonder why people think trip to be that much powerful tactics. Sure, now a prone creature provoke AoA when standing up. But trip is an opposed ability roll with special size modifier. Even with some bonuses from feats and such, high leveled characters are not sure if he can trip usual soldiers at practical accessibility. Dwarfs, one of the most common Melee PC race, has +4 bonus to resist it. And PCs often fight against something big and strong, something with 3+ legs, or something has no legs at all (you can't trip an animated iron ball). And relatively cheap item, Steadfast Boots from AEG, can negate it.

 

[Bryan898]

I thought Deft Opportunist only gave you a +4 to hit on AoO's and that's it. From Complete Adventurer, right?

Deft Strike from CA gives you +4 to your AoO's. Deft Opportunist allows you a 5' step after an AoO.

You might be able to make a fairly powerful monk character with the right feats, but nothing game breaking. Bonus- Improved Unarmed, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip; Normal- Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, Karmic Strike, Deft Opportunist, Close-Quarters Fighting, Hold the Line. This would grant you: AoO's when charged, AoO when being grappled with the damage you deal added in to your grapple, the target of your Dodge feat cannot use the Power Attack ability on you, AoO's whenever hit in melee combat, and the ability to move 5' after an AoO. You'd need an extremely high Dex to make all those AoO's. You also wouldn't shine in mass combats, though you would potentially be a one-on-one monster. Nothing game breaking, or even truly munchkined.

 

[Bryan898]

Slightly off-topic, but I wonder why people think trip to be that much powerful tactics. Sure, now a prone creature provoke AoA when standing up. But trip is an opposed ability roll with special size modifier. Even with some bonuses from feats and such, high leveled characters are not sure if he can trip usual soldiers at practical accessibility. Dwarfs, one of the most common Melee PC race, has +4 bonus to resist it. And PCs often fight against something big and strong, something with 3+ legs, or something has no legs at all (you can't trip an animated iron ball). And relatively cheap item, Steadfast Boots from AEG, can negate it.

I agree. While its a fairly strong ability against some opponents, most the creatures my PCs face would have a hard time tripping. Besides those ways to get out of trip, there's also a high Tumble check (I had a paladin once who could make the DC in mithral full plate), and the Prone Attack feat from CW (which allows you to attack from prone with no penalty and stand if you hit).

 

[Arravis]

So which book does your Deft Opportunist come from?

P.S.: Just checked Complete Adventurer, the +4 to AoO's is called Deft Opportunist. Deft Strike is another feat altogether (also in CA) which involves a spot check to find a weakness in someone's AC.

 

[Felon]

Grapple prevents it, or it should depending on your DM's interpretation of the rule. Grappling is not an attack as such, it is just grabbing on to the person. The grapple check is not an attack roll but a grapple check using the same mechanic as a melee touch attack. Even if the DM decides that the grapple attempt qualifies as an actual melee touch attack, the grapple still gets resolved first.

Incorrect on a number of points. Before the actual grapple check, you must make a successful melee touch attack roll. That is indeed a genuine attack roll, and even without Karmic Strike, it does provoke an AoO. And if that AoO succeeds, the entire grapple attempt automatically fails.

If that touch attack succeeds Karmic Strike would then entitle the defending character to an AoO as well. However, the rules state that even a character with Combat Reflexes can only receive one attack per opportunity, so Karmic Strike is simply moot because, all other things being equal, the character is better off taking the AoO before the touch attack.

And the Improved Grapple feat negates this feat anyway. Very first sentence in the description, "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make an attack roll to start a grapple." So, the Karmic Strike may work on a regular grapple attack, but if you have Improved Grapple, he won't get to pop you when you grab him. Improved Trip and Improved Bull Rush work the same way.

That's pretty argumentative. It is pretty obvious that the "Improved" line of feats you mention were intended to negate the AoO that the attacks normally provoke, so it'd be a DM's call as to whether they also negate AoO's granted through non-standard means. Feat A says you don't get an AoO, Feat B says you do. It's pretty much a toss-up as to which feat's wording trumps the other.

Also, for the grapple, even if he gets one AoO on the guy grappling him, once the grapple is made, his feat is useless. Establishing a pin right off negates the feat by immobilizing him, leaving you free to use the rest of your attacks to automatically damage him without retaliation. Get that boy grappled and pinned by someone with armor spikes and that's D6 + Str + whatever else damage per attack automatically, no attack roll needed. Then when his turn comes around he has to spend his attacks trying to break the grapple instead of attacking you. And if he keeps the feat "on", it doesn't help since once you've got him grappled, you can automatically inflict damage without having to make an attack roll.

Whoa. Major errors there. Attacks do not automatically damage either a grappled or pinned opponent. You are required to make normal attack rolls, against which the opponent receive full AC. And in fact, the rules actually state (and this is pretty dumb IMO) that while you have an opponent pinned, you actually don't have the option of attacking him with any sort of weapon unless the opponent is actually holding it for you.

 

[Felon]

So you take 3 feats for the privlage of multiple counterstikes - since you actually have to get hit for this to work it seems fair.

Note that technically we're talking four feats--Dodge & Combat Expertise are the prereqs for KS. Combat Reflexes makes it especially powerful. Big investment. Of course, a human monk could have all of those by third level....