Karmic Strike: Undefeatable.......?

[moritheil]

No you would not, as dictated in the PHB you would only receive one.

However conceptually you would get two AoO. And continuing with my conceptual thought process

If my players were to argue that the pink elephants told them they should get another AOO this round, I would not seriously consider the argument. Nor do I think it merits serious consideration here. Any "thought process" in a discussion here must be based on the rules. For you to mention that you are in flagrant violation of the PHB and then continue blithely with your "thought process" indicates that you are no longer discussing the rules, and that this should be moved to House Rules.

I just want to caution you about turning your back on the rules and marching in the opposite direction - that way leads potential madness.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A character has to actually be helpless to be at 0 Dexterity, but he might conceivably lose his Dexterity bonus against his fellow grapplers. However, it's not specifically mentioned. The pinned character does take a -4 penalty to AC against other opponents, in addition to losing his Dex against them, but it looks like he would retain full AC against his pinner.

Check footnote 4 on the Table of Armor Class modifiers.

If you're grappling, you lose your Dex bonus against everyone except the person you're grappling.

If you're pinned, you take a -4 on your AC against melee attacks (except from the person pinning you), and your Dex is treated as 0 (-5 modifier) against everyone.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If my players were to argue that the pink elephants told them they should get another AOO this round, I would not seriously consider the argument.

He's phrasing it the wrong way, but it's a valid point he's trying to make.

Instead of "You provoke two AoO", what he means is "You provoke one AoO, for two reasons".

If you have one hit die, and 5 hit points, and a wight hits you with a Slam attack for 15 points of damage and one negative level, you're dead. One death, but for two reasons - you have negative levels equal to or greater than your hit dice, and your hit points are at -10. If you have a Scarab of Protection, you don't take the negative level, so you're not dead because of the negative level. But you're still dead.

If you attempt to Disarm me with your bare hands, you provoke one AoO, but for two reasons - you're making an unarmed attack, and you are attempting to disarm. If you have the Improved Disarm feat, "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to disarm an opponent". By a literal reading, this means that you don't suffer any AoO at all for this action. But we can understand the wording to mean "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity by reason of attempting a disarm when you attempt to disarm an opponent". The feat negates one of the reasons you are provoking an AoO, but you still provoke because you are making an unarmed attack.

Likewise, the text in Improved Grapple, "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple", can be understood to mean "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity by reason of making a touch attack to start a grapple when you make a touch attack to start a grapple". But this doesn't negate other reasons you might provoke an AoO, like "hitting someone who's using Karmic Strike".

-Hyp.

 

[moritheil]

He's phrasing it the wrong way, but it's a valid point he's trying to make.

Instead of "You provoke two AoO", what he means is "You provoke one AoO, for two reasons".

-Hyp.

That is, semantically at least, a very different statement. And it is a valid concern.

 

[Hawken]

But Karmic Strike doesn't provide an AoO for starting a grapple. It provides an AoO for hitting with a melee attack.

Hence why KS doesn't work against IG. Grappling is not a melee attack. It does not inflict damage. You simply make a melee touch attack to grab hold of someone, not inflict damage.

IG negates an AoO for starting a grapple. It doesn't negate an AoO for hitting with a melee attack, which is what Karmic Strike is triggering from.

Just like IUS negates "attacks of opportunity from armed opponents when you attack unarmed", but doesn't negate AoOs for hitting with a melee attack.

Starting a grapple is not "hitting" with a melee attack. Successfully starting a grapple does not inflict any damage whatsoever. And IUS does not negate KS because it is still an attack that you must hit with. Starting a grapple is not "hitting" someone and doesn't inflict damage. You can hit someone with your fist or foot, but you don't hit with a grapple, you just grapple.

Karmic Strike triggers off a hit from a melee attack, whether that attack is initiating a grapple or not. Improved Grapple only negates an AoO from initiating a grapple. It's exactly the same situation as the unarmed strike - the negation is focused to narrowly to include Karmic Strike.

KS does not state it is triggered whether from a grapple or not. Those are your words, there is nothing like that in the feat description. And the IG AOO negation is not focused at all, it is directed at anyone that a grapple attempt is being made on. It does defeat KS because starting a grapple is not "hitting" someone.

If you read the description of KS it mentions, "If you hit with your attack of opportunity both you and your opponent deal and take damage simultaneously". This implies that the feat triggers only on melee attacks that inflict damage. Grappling doesn't do that.

Sure, not bad. Only problem is, Combat Expertise is a prereq, so he'd lose access to the feat while raging.

What book are you reading that says Combat Expertise is a prerequisite for KS? It isn't. Dex 13+ and Dodge are the only requirements for KS.

Likewise, the text in Improved Grapple, "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple", can be understood to mean "You do not provoke an attack of opportunity by reason of making a touch attack to start a grapple when you make a touch attack to start a grapple". But this doesn't negate other reasons you might provoke an AoO, like "hitting someone who's using Karmic Strike".

Wrong again, Hyp. Starting a grapple, with IG, against someone with KS, is not hitting them. Hitting something causes damage. Its grabbing them. Grabbing doesn't cause damage. And when you say things like "can be understood to mean...," you're getting away from the rules as they are written and straying into your own idea of what those rules mean.

 

[moritheil]

Wrong again, Hyp. Starting a grapple, with IG, against someone with KS, is not hitting them. Hitting something causes damage. Its grabbing them. Grabbing doesn't cause damage. And when you say things like "can be understood to mean...," you're getting away from the rules as they are written and straying into your own idea of what those rules mean.

Oooh! Showdown! An open challenge to Hyp!

*grapples a bowl of popcorn*

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you read the description of KS it mentions, "If you hit with your attack of opportunity both you and your opponent deal and take damage simultaneously". This implies that the feat triggers only on melee attacks that inflict damage. Grappling doesn't do that.

If you read the description of Karmic Strike?

"... the ability to make an attack of opportunity against any creature that makes a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against you."

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Notice: the grab requires a melee touch attack, that succeeds.

If you do this, you've made a successful melee touch attack.

"... the ability to make an attack of opportunity against any creature that makes a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against you."

Step 2 of Starting a Grapple, if successful, provokes an AoO from Karmic Strike.

Notice also that the AoO for initiating a grapple occurs in Step 1. The AoO from Karmic Strike doesn't occur until Step 2 is resolved (was the touch attack successful?) They are, in fact, separate opportunities... and someone with Combat Reflexes and Karmic Strike could take both, though if the first deals damage, the second opportunity never occurs.

1. Character A attempts to initiate a grapple. In step 1, character B gets an AoO. If he deals damage, the grapple is thwarted. If not, we move onto step 2.

2. Character A makes a melee touch attack. If he's successful, Karmic Strike triggers, and character B gets an AoO (though dealing damage will not automatically thwart the grapple), and we move on to step 3. If he fails, Karmic Strike doesn't trigger, but the grapple is unsuccessful.

What book are you reading that says Combat Expertise is a prerequisite for KS? It isn't. Dex 13+ and Dodge are the only requirements for KS.

Um, unless stated otherwise, we assume 3.5. Try the 3.5 version of Karmic Strike in the Complete Warrior.

Of course the 3E version of Karmic Strike doesn't require Combat Expertise. It wasn't called Combat Expertise in 3E.

In 3.5, Combat Expertise is a prerequisite.

-Hyp.

 

[gabrion]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but the wrathful healing special ability on a weapon makes Karmic Strike+Combat Reflexes really powerful.

If you aren't familiar, Wrathful Healing is in Enemies and Allies and every time the wielder hit someone, he heals half the damage he does. In a Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist build, where you will be doing about 50 dmg per hit, this makes it possible to "trade blows."

 

[Bloodweaver1]

That is not a fact. That is your opinion. KS states it grants an AOO for successful melee attacks. IG states that it prevents AOOs for grapple attempts.

I apologize for the confusion. What I meant to say was that “I’m going to side with KS trumping the Improved ****”. I no way was I trying to make my opinion fact.

He's phrasing it the wrong way, but it's a valid point he's trying to make.

Instead of "You provoke two AoO", what he means is "You provoke one AoO, for two reasons"

Thanks Hyp! That is exactly what I was attempting to say but was failing to put it into words.

If you aren't familiar, Wrathful Healing is in Enemies and Allies and every time the wielder hit someone, he heals half the damage he does. In a Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist build, where you will be doing about 50 dmg per hit, this makes it possible to "trade blows."

hmmm…. Very interesting… I was not aware of the magical enchantment… {Writes note to add that ability to his characters’ weapon enhancement list} Thanx!

 

[billd91]

If you read the description of KS it mentions, "If you hit with your attack of opportunity both you and your opponent deal and take damage simultaneously". This implies that the feat triggers only on melee attacks that inflict damage. Grappling doesn't do that.

I think Hypersmurf's posts clearly point out the way the rules are intended to work. But I have to ask for a clarification of your position here. If the character with KS had damage reduction of some sort, do you believe that he wouldn't get to use it if his attacker hit his AC but failed to do more damage than his DR?

Being hit and successfully doing damage are two different things. It's possible to do one, but not the other. KS is only concerned with getting hit, not actually suffering damage (though that is the most common effect of being hit).