D&D 4E Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)

[Hussar]

(a principle you see in a range of media - for example, in season seven of Buffy the Vampire Slayer when one turok-han beats the crap out of Buffy, and by the end of the season the gang is slaughtering them in droves).

Give that man his geek cred for actually knowing the name of that critter AND how to spell it properly.

Thanks for the words Keith.

 

[Lizard]

As for the idea that "minions will explode when cats attack them", this is trying to apply realism to a concept that isn't supposed to be realistic. Yes, minions are defeated when they take damage. This isn't supposed to suggest that they are walking soap bubbles that pop if a 4-year-old pokes them.

See, that's just the impression I get. I'm one of those 'laws of physics' people, and when I see 'Kobold minions die if they take any damage', I immediately wonder how they survived toe-stubbing as a child...

The same creature can have hit points when used against lower-level characters and be treated as a minion at higher levels - because when fighting epic level characters, devils that would slaughter a 1st-level character are now trivial (a principle you see in a range of media - for example, in season seven of Buffy the Vampire Slayer when one turok-han beats the crap out of Buffy, and by the end of the season the gang is slaughtering them in droves).

Or what we called the inverse-ninja rule -- the more ninjas there are, the wussier they are. One ninja is a major threat. A hundred ninjas is an annoyance.

D&D has traditionally modeled this through different mechanics -- giving commoners 1d4 hit points when most weapons do more than that (along with cats). Moving to a purely dramatic system, where a creature has as many hit points as the scene at hand dictates, is a severe paradigm shift. It also implies that a minion may transform into a different creature the instant it becomes important to the plot -- suddenly, the same kobold that would die from a sword stroke has 30 hit points and Cool Special Powers.

This is used in a lot of games -- but is it D&D? I mean, if I wanted to play Feng Shui, I could. (Well, other than the 'no one around here plays anything but D&D' problem...I want to run this cool pulp-era game using Feng Shui, but good luck with that...anyway, I digress...)

First level may be the new third for PCs. This has no impact on the world at large; on the contrary, the commoner IS likely to be a minion, making the PC stand out all the more.

It's a difficult mental shift. It really changes the style of the game; I won't say it's better or worse, but it's *different*. While 3e dramatically changed the rules of D&D over previous editions, 4e dramatically changes the *model* -- and it's easier, IMO, to learn new rules. The idea that Fred the Guard can be mechanically different depending on if the PCs encounter him when they're first level or when they're tenth is...odd, at least to me. Seems like that new-agey 'Forge' indie stuff.

It's pretty near impossible for either the game I'm in or the game I'm running to be converted to 4e with any kind of success, so by the time it's time to start up something new, a year or more from now, we'll have seen all the rules for 4e and will be able to judge it.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I'm going on designer statements that monsters are assumed to 'live' for a single encounter, and are balanced for that and that alone. As to whether anything is specifically broken, that will probably show up only in Actual Play TM. I am concerned over the lack of healing surges for monsters, but there may be rules in the DMG for dealing with what happens when a PC or NPC uses a healing-surge dependent power on a creature which doesn't have them. (The bodak, for example, 'eats' healing surges, a nifty mechanic. But if only PCs have them, how does the bodak feed when there's no PCs to eat?)

You honestly take the most pathological approach to 4E. The mechanic of the bodak is meant to give some real game consequences for what is something that has some physical or metaphysical explanation in the game world that does not directly relate to any measured statistic of the game.

Getting back to the pathological view of the bugbear strangler as PC ally: If one wants a long-term PC ally, then use the monster accordingly. Do you want the monster to survive? Then give it a healing surge or two. Do you worry about the long-term use of the monster's special ability? Then take it away once the monster becomes an ally of the PC. The strangler is a perfect example: it has a dramatic action that it can do, and continued use of this action is not as dramatic, so move on to something else.

 

[JeffB]

Exactly. You play this way. I play this way. I think most people play this way. So if most people don't bother allocating all their points, why even bother with points that even need allocation?

So here is a radical design idea: Why not change the game to match the way most people play?

IMO, WotC did just that with 4e.

Yup. This is one area where 4E makes me REALLY REALLY happy.

Anyone remember Runequest 2 & 3? Where every monster and NPC was statted out with nearly a full list of skills and hit locations like a PC? Nightmare. And Chaosium knew it and made several "book o' generic monsters and npc stats" because people griped and it was alot of unneccessary work. Big books of computer generated stats. It wasted so much space in Runequest boxed sets and adventures having all those full or nearly full stat write-ups. There would be one encounter with 12 trollkin and 8 trolls, and they'd all be written up. Now add up multiple encounters per adventure...yeesh

 

[Hellcow]

It really changes the style of the game; I won't say it's better or worse, but it's *different*.

I won't argue that. My position, of course, is that it's great for Eberron, which has always incorporated this flavor (on the pulp end of the spectrum) but has often run counter to the rules in the process.

...by the time it's time to start up something new, a year or more from now, we'll have seen all the rules for 4e and will be able to judge it.

Yup. Like I said, I'm sure some people will like it, and others won't. Luckily, with Paizo (and presumably others) continuing to support 3E through the SRD, hopefully both will still be going strong in a year when you're ready to make that decision.

And as always, bear in mind that I'm not a 4E designer or any sort of authority on the rules, so before people start posting threads on "Keith Baker Explains Minions!" - that's my interpretation of minions, not taken from the rules or anything like that. For all I know, the final rules will say "Minions are walking soap bubbles that burst on contact with anything more solid than air."

 

[Mephistopheles]

It has? How?

How have people who don't like the vulnerability of 1st level characters been getting by up until now? Add more hit points at first level, start at level 2 or 3, or whatever else people have come up with. I think instead of saying PCs being sturdy at 1st level I should have said PCs being sturdy at the start of a campaign. That we have a few people in this thread saying things like "I haven't started a D&D campaign at 1st level since..." reinforces the case that the options have been there for those that didn't like PCs starting out too vulnerable.

I have nothing against PCs kicking butt on a level that leaves them short on time to take names straight out of the gate. I don't even mind if that's the new starting default as for all I know more people are playing previous editions that way than not. However, I do think it would be disappointing for D&D to lose the option to play a game where that is not the default. That's all I'm getting at.

 

[Goobermunch]

"The DM can make it up" is always an answer to any question about any rules in any game, but, is it the BEST answer?

A PC mind-controls a foe and sends the foe to fight the Bodak. The Bodak decides to eat some healing surges. The PC, noting that his forced ally is about to die from other wounds, uses a power to heal said ally (to keep him distracting the bodak as long as possible). Does the ally have healing surges left? "He does if the DM wants him to" is a valid answer, but not a good one. It puts the DM into deciding the conclusion of the story, not just the beginning of it.

Yes, I've seen actual play where PCs heal 'enemies' -- either to keep using them for some purpose, or because (this was a PC I played) they have very strict codes against killing and will stop in mid-battle to stabilize a fallen foe. So I don't want healing rules that just work for PC/PC interaction or just NPC/NPC interaction. I want one set of rules that don't care who is the heal-er and who is the heal-ee.

Everyone keeps telling me "4e is less work for the DM!", but I see it as a lot more work, because I have to make up a lot more rules on the fly for all the things it doesn't cover in the name of "simplicity". I have better things to do, as a DM, in play, than write rules. The players in my game want me to help them experience a fun and exciting adventure, not playtest my new house rules being produced as we go.

Hey Lizard--

Where'd you get a copy of the DMG? I'd really like to get one myself.

--G

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It also implies that a minion may transform into a different creature the instant it becomes important to the plot -- suddenly, the same kobold that would die from a sword stroke has 30 hit points and Cool Special Powers.

ok, thats called: Leveling up...

its like a first Level commoner with 1hp winning against kobolds and taking a Level of barbarian in 3.x
he at least doubles his hp and gains a new daily power

 

[pgmason]

I always wanted to have a go at a regional module for Living Greyhawk. I had some good ideas for Onnwal regionals, but I never got around to it, and eventually fell out of playing LG. What put me off, was having to do stat-blocks, and work out CRs and ELs etc. I have never DM'd 3.0 or 3.5 (though I've run WFRP, CoC, Vampire etc), and I have no interest whatsoever in the 'crunch'. I could definitely see myself writing scenarios for 4e, where I could get away with minimal stats etc, whereas I'd never touch it in 3.5.

 

[Goobermunch]

Change "greatsword" to "folding chair" and then think about the question you're really asking here. Hulk Hogan also clearly makes use of second wind and healing surges, as well as at-will and per-encounter abilities!

EDIT: You know the more I think about this, the more astounding the parallels between professional wrestlers and 4e PCs are.

I'm going to demand entrance music for mine I think.

My 3.5e Warforged Psywar has a theme song: Iron Man!

--G