D&D 4E Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)

[Goobermunch]

Klaus,

I think the importance of this distinction is that in 3.5e, the design paradigm was to create a universal set of rules that applied to all entities. While you are absolutely correct that you can get to the same location, the process of getting there involves either the limits of the design paradigm or invocation of Rule 0, which, while technically within the rules, subverts the design paradigm.

On the other hand, under 4e, the design paradigm gives the DM license to do what he needs to do to run the game. 4e is about tools, not rules. As a result, the DM doesn't need to analyze whether the NPCs level, stats, skill ranks, feats, and equipment are perfectly harmonized to reach the desired result. He can just determine the desired story element and implement it to the extent necessary.

Now some folks will say that NPCs generated in this manner are little more than Potemkin villages. And I suppose there is some validity to that argument. But at the same time, does every NPC bartender need a full character sheet and detailed life story? If the game develops in such a way that Healer: heal +12 becomes relevant to the PCs, the DM may need to do a bit more work. But the work doesn't need to be done until the PCs decide that Healer: heal +12 needs a name (invented on the spot), and some backstory (sketched in during the session and developed the day after). In this way, plot device Healer: heal +12 can evolve into an NPC that needs a full character sheet and back story.

--G

 

[RigaMortus2]

2. Nobody ever has to know the NPC has +40. If someone is capable of amazing feats of skill, then they can do it. No dice have to be rolled, and no mechanics need to be used, unless a PC is somehow involved.

Nobody has to know you ever rolled dice to hit a target either. If you want the kobold skirmisher to hurt the PC ranger, just say that he hits.

 

[hong]

Nobody has to know you ever rolled dice to hit a target either. If you want the kobold skirmisher to hurt the PC ranger, just say that he hits.

That's why I said "unless a PC is somehow involved".

 

[RigaMortus2]

I really do not see much difference between this:

invocation of Rule 0, which, while technically within the rules, subverts the design paradigm.

and this:

On the other hand, under 4e, the design paradigm gives the DM license to do what he needs to do to run the game.

Seems like semantics to me.

 

[RigaMortus2]

That's why I said "unless a PC is somehow involved".

And how is a PC not involved when an NPC with a +12 Heal check goes to heal them? The reason, I presume, you even created the NPC in the first place AND felt it necessary to give them X skill with Y modifier, is that the PCs are going to interact with it, and that skill is going to be used, thus the PCs are going to be 'involved'

 

[Colmarr]

I think Klaus is saying that he can build the NPC per the rules, and then display only the information that he wants and needs, and that to a certain extent there is no need to concern yourself with rules minutiae that won't come up in play. And to an extent he's correct. That is possible in 3e.

However, history has shown us that that is not how 3e was officially presented. Dragon characters have full stat blocks. Dungeon NPCs have full stat blocks. Monsters have full stat blocks. Etc.

The difference with 4e is not that it allows you to do something new. The difference is that it as a default only requires you to provide the information that is going to be needed.

If official published 4e adventures provide NPCs with stat blocks like the one set out by Klaus, then IMO that is a massive improvement on the 3e standard.

 

[hong]

And how is a PC not involved when an NPC with a +12 Heal check goes to heal them? The reason, I presume, you even created the NPC in the first place AND felt it necessary to give them X skill with Y modifier, is that the PCs are going to interact with it, and that skill is going to be used, thus the PCs are going to be 'involved'

That is the +12 Heal NPC that Keith Baker used in his game. I was talking about the hypothetical +40 NPC that some random guy dreamt up for their random example. Whether or not this hypothetical +40 is actually meant to be used, I have no idea.

I will bet money that most DMs don't bother with half the skill checks they technically should be rolling. If the party members want an NPC to make full plate for them, it's done. If they want an NPC to decipher some weird scrolls for them, it's done. Etcetera. Unless there is potential for conflict (especially violent conflict), then this kind of thing is generally done by DM fiat.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

3. It's been revealed that 4E will include tables giving recommended skill/attack/defense bonuses by level and role, along with ways of modifying published monsters to fit specific needs. Thus you will get something similar to a build framework, but greatly simplified compared to that used by PCs.

Or it's even simpler than all of that.

If you want an NPC who is the world famous blacksmith capable of whatever feat of blacksmithing you can imagine, you can just make him. Give him whatever bonus you want. Since he is an NPC and not required to follow the rules of players. Which means, even if he has +50 to his blacksmithing skill it doesn't matter what his level is. Heck, he doesn't even need a level...or hitpoints. Heck, you don't even need to come up with a bonus for his skill. Since whether he successfully makes a suit of armor doesn't really matter in 99% of all cases. If you want him to finish the armor in time, you say he does. If you don't want him to then he doesn't.

You'll find that the 4e philosophy is more about creating the experience you want than following a set of rules. It certainly encourages you to say "At this point I want the best blacksmith in the entire world to craft a suit of armor that is finely made for all of the PCs, personalized for them. It'll take him only 3 days, he is that legendary. That will mean they'll get their armor the night before the army is scheduled to head out to fight the evil King's army." instead of "The best blacksmith in the world is in town, the PCs might think about asking him for help, if they do he'll try to make them personalized armor with a +16 bonus to the roll, which means he can do a rush job by taking -10 to the roll and complete it in 1 day per 100 gp value of the armors made. It depends if the PCs ask for multiple sets of full plate or sets of leather as to how long it will take. The battle against the opposing army is in 3 days, so only a couple of suits might be done by then."

 

[Sashi]

Or worse, you give that NPC a +50 bonus to Blacsmithing, and by the 3.5 rules it means that's he's got an 18 int, 24 ranks, skill focus, a random +2/+2 feat, and a hammer of +17 to blacksmithing.

All of which means he's a 20th level expert who can slap the members of your 5th level party silly.

 

[keterys]

Just make him 21st with epic skill focus. Clearly.