D&D 4E Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)

Li Shenron

Legend
Fifth Element said:
Because in 3.5, the same rules explicitly apply to both PCs and NPCs. Sure you can wing it, but technically, in order to have +12 Heal you need to have the ranks, bonuses etc figured out. In 4E, apparently they're explicit that NPCs do not need to be fully statted.

We have said hundreds of times in this forum, that full-statting up NPCs that are not supposed to be engaged in combat is a waste of time.

Maybe the 3ed rules assumed that everyone was statted, but IMHO I think that the game (and most of its problems) are made by the gamers themselves, and a lot of the gamers in 3ed could only see statted NPCs and fully statted monsters, and some of them even considered "lesser gamers" those who instead just "wing it" :\

Instead, apparently those "lesser gamers" were one edition ahead :cool:
 

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The question might be:
With what could you get away with in an official publication or under player scrutiny?

Maybe a Heal +12 or Craft (Armorsmithing) +40 would have worked fine with your player.
But what if that's what you put in an official supplement or adventure module?
I think the Rules forum would be all over this. It would look unprofessional. You have to stat out the full NPC, even if you never need more than this +12 or +40. (And if you stat out the +40, you're aware that you just described a high level NPC, possibly with a powerful magical item? And all this just to explain the +40 skill check, for a NPC that probably never should enter a combat with the PCs or anyone else? You invest time and most of this related to stuff you will never need.)

Personally, I'd probably want a stat block of this creature even in 4E. But if it's easy to make up, and doesn't have to follow stufff like wealth by level guidelines, fiddly skill point allocation and similar things (plus explaining why the NPC is that level in the first place), and non-conflict related aspects (like Heal or Crafting) can be kept level-independent, that's perfect. In fact, if it's easy enough, I might not really need the statted NPC (aside from the +12 Heal or +40 abrirtrary skill), and be fine with defining it on the fly if the rest of its statistics ever come up.
 

Klaus said:
If Dm Fiat a valid answer, then why not:
It's not a valid answer. From what I understand it, 4E will encourage or provide guidelines to make up NPC stats on the fly with only the level detail needed. 3E does not.

Because for some people, the text of the rules is the only thing that matters.
Indeed. My group is pretty adamant about rule conformance. We feel free to make house rules if neccessary, but we keep that to a minimum.
---

And sometimes pure RAW isn't even enough.
If an adventure designer comes around and creates a monster with abritrary stats (like, for example, a +4 competence bonus to all attacks*), we can get pissed. Or when some adventure designer comes around and slaps a level of Warrior on a Barbarian for NPC powerup without CR increase. Especially when we see how these rule abuses actually work against the game balance. If you want to give us a tough fight, do it. But don't cheat around and give us less CR for it.


*)Savage Tides writers, I am looking at you! Maybe it was also a Monster Manual writer. +4 to attacks? Plus ~50 % more HD then CR? Are you kidding me? I am annoyed, and I wasn't even there during the encounter - that killed 2 characters, and one even twice - only during the "dissection" a week later!
[/rant]
 

Scrollreader

Explorer
Normally, I don't get into discussions like this, and I apologize if someone has already brought this up ... but it's a big deal to me. I don't have a regular in person group I game with. I do almost all of my gaming at cons, or online either play by post or IRC. I often start a game with a list of houserules, if one is avaliable, since no two DMs run a game exactly the same. So, lets say you have a nifty campaign in mind, and you set it about 15th level. I make a cleric, because I like a clerics. You set it in the forgotten realms, which is nifty, because I like the forgotten realms. We're in a small kingdom, lets just call it Cormyr, because it's representative. It could be anywhere though, in any setting. Our patron has been sending us on missions, etc, and arriving back from a mission, we find him dead with a rictus grin on his face, poisoned to death, with only a cryptic couple of lines scribbled on a piece of paper for clues. So far, it's great, it's awesome, maybe slightly cliched, but it's interesting, it's D&D.
But now I have a problem. Why don't I cast raise dead? Or ressurection? Is speak with dead okay? All of this is something that's /tone/. Even if a DM has provided me with a list of houserules, something that's tone, like this, is probably not in them. (I've just checked. I have five lists of houserules, for seven games. This is not mentioned in four of them. In the other, it's not mentioned as tone, but there are house rules to make ressurections more expensive, and as such I can at least infer that the DM isn't fond of 'casual' ressurection) The problem is when I have to drop out of the story, to have fifteen minute discussions with the DM (or maybe a couple days, in a play by post) to figure out what I should do, to stay in character.
You might be surprised how often this comes up. I remember at Gencon, a couple years ago (right before it moved to Milwaukee) I broke the D&D open* this way. My druid prepared reincarnation (which was not on the list of disallowed spells) and brought someone back that I wasn't supposed to. Not only did it throw the DM for a loop, and disrupt play while he tried to figure out what to do, but if affected my team's scores, as well as causing a long period of out of character discussion and rulebook flipping.

What this represents, to me, this little snippet, is that the new edition is focusing on things like this in the play experience. On making common assumptions and houserules into things that everyone can see and know, and reference. I don't really /care/ what the rule is. I'd be perfectly happy playing in Dragera, which is awesome. But it certainly doesn't have the same feel, especially concerning death and ressurection that my houseruled Eberron game does (which is remarkably close to this rule, actually. Anyone without action points can't be ressurected). Especially with things like the digital intiative, along with old fashioned IRDC gaming, and convention play, it's important to me that everyone starts in the same place. I find this /attention/ to be the important thing about this announcement, as I know DM will houserule it anyway. The difference is, this rule provides clear guidance for the 'default' setting, before a DM messes with it, and allows me a reasonable expectation, as a player, of how to react. Will I try to ressurect the patron in 4e? It would depend of course, on the specifics, but unless he is heroic in his own right, I probably won't.

3.5 is littered with these kind of OOCbombs, as I've taken to calling them. When I'm creating a character, I have to take a step back from my concept, and make sure the level of optimization I intend matches that of other players. (A well built gish, for instance, might be fine in a game where someone is playing a leap attack PA monster, someone else is playing a master thrower/fighter/rogue, and a third player is using the Mark of Storms to full battlefield control potential. It's probably less of a good idea in a game where someone is playing a straight fighter, with multiple multiple weapon focuses, and someone sle is playing a bard/druid multiclass) Then, once I've done that, there are the rules on ressurection, the rules on the avaliability of magic items, and NPC spellcasters, the avaliability of prestige classes, the way people act towards NPCs, if all 'monstrous' races are evil, etc.

My gaming time is precious, especially when I play online, which has a slow pace, or when I play a convention, where time is eaten up by introductions and chargen/character choice. Anything that helps me and the DM start on the same page, and has as few things to drag me 'out' of the experience is a good thing, in my experience.


So yes, I'm glad to see this. Excited? no. But it gives me a nice feeling, to know that in all the mechanics buzz, other issues, even if they aren't huge ones, are being taken care of.


*To be quite honest, this was my first experience with convention play, and I was, shall we say, not at all impressed. This was back in the days of 3.0, and the wizard had martial weapon proficiency shortsword (WHY?) and the druid elf was given a longbow, which would have completely negated her druid abilities to use. If I hadn't been forcibly dragged into a 'Living' game the next day, after a night of drinking with some hardcore convention gamers, I might have given up on it altogether. Fortunately, that experience convinced me to give it another shot, and my organized play experiences since have been much better. Who knows, I might even try the 'Open' again ... someday.
 

D.Shaffer

First Post
The main difference, from the way I'm seeing things, between how 3rd and 4th stat out NPCs is this.

3rd gives you a set of build up rules, all tied into level, HD, and monster type. It gives you a short section on how to customize NPCs. It mentions rule 0 but doesnt really call attention to it. All NPCS in published works are fully fleshed out.

4th gives you build up rules that ARE tied to level and role. It gives a section on customizing the NPCs. Rule 0 is not only called out, it's highlighted and is made the expected norm so far as it comes to stats. All published NPCs only have the info needed to play.

It's not so much that you COULDNT do this in 3.5, it's that 4th specifically calls it out and makes it the norm. Sure, you COULD just write 'Healer, Heal +12', but it was greatly implied that you needed to write out the full stat array in 3.5 to show how you achieved the numbers. 4th, you need a +12 heal check? It has a +12 heal check.
 


EATherrian

First Post
Bold or Stupid said:
Human, 4 ranks in heal, Skill focus, some sort of homebrew +2/+2 Feat gives 9, +3 Wisdom Bonus. There you go +12 Healing, hell I can drop wisdom to +1 if he has a healing kit (+2 circumstance). But that is pushing the system.

For the record I agree with Mr Baker, the system saying "Just give the NPCs what they need to fulfill their story role." is a great thing to put in a system.

Maybe since even in 3E I just made the NPCs do what I wanted to do, and the monsters too I didn't realize that was such a big deal. It seems that in doing that part of 3E wrong I've been doing part of the 4E philosophy all along. That is something I agree with, why bother with stats you'll never use.
 


EATherrian

First Post
Li Shenron said:
We have said hundreds of times in this forum, that full-statting up NPCs that are not supposed to be engaged in combat is a waste of time.

Maybe the 3ed rules assumed that everyone was statted, but IMHO I think that the game (and most of its problems) are made by the gamers themselves, and a lot of the gamers in 3ed could only see statted NPCs and fully statted monsters, and some of them even considered "lesser gamers" those who instead just "wing it" :\

Instead, apparently those "lesser gamers" were one edition ahead :cool:

Or behind. I kept doing things like I did when I DM'd 1st and 2nd Edition. Maybe I've been doing it wrong this whole time, but I don't feel like I need to figure out how an NPC has x, I just give them x unless they are important enough to stat out. If this is something that 4E is returning to I count it as a major plus even though I obviously ignored it all these years.
 

Goobermunch

Explorer
RigaMortus2 said:
Seems like semantics to me.

You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to. Let's call the whole thing off.

Core assumptions influence how we approach the rules. The core assumption of 3.xe is that everything follows the same rules. Ever being needs hit dice, skill ranks, feats, and all of the associated traits that characters have. If you deviate from the core, you need to invoke the special "I'm breaking the rules" rule. You have created a special case.

The core assumption of 4e is about function over form. Rather than expecting strict adherence to the creature building process, 4e assumes that you'll spend as much time as developing the healer as that character warrants based on his or her importance to the story.

Yes, 3.xe permits that style of play. But 4e assumes that style of play. That's a significant difference. It's a difference that infuses the entire approach to the game. And that is why it's a big deal.

--G
 

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