D&D 5E Kender as an appropriate race

[MG.0]

it's been years since I read anything other then that NSFW 4chan write up picture, so if you have a picture of text saying that kenders do learn over time about personal property I will admit I am wrong...

But they understand personal property. They just deal with it differently than most. Having just the one book in front of me at the moment, I can't provide an example of them learning not to borrow, but there are references to them learning to temper some of their other natures:

Some kender might allow their curiosity to
overcome their common sense when facing
unusual opponents, such as dragons, though
they eventually learn to run when running is
best.
A kender's fellow adventurers often have to
teach him that certain things have big. nasty
teeth and that avoiding these things is often in
the kender's best interests, regardless of what
the kender's opinions are in the matter.
Whenever a kender displays an inordinately
sensible attitude about danger, it is probably
because the kender realizes that continued
curiosity will ruin any further chances of doing
exciting things ever again.


A later section mentions some information about their sense of property:


On the other hand, kender, like everyone
else, do not like the idea of someone deliber-
ately taking an item from someone else with-
out the latter's permission. To be called a thief
is still considered a base insult. This assertion
sounds remarkable in view of the fact that
kender constantly borrow things from each
other and from visitors (without asking) in
their communities. Kender don't regard their
idea of borrowing as stealing, however. If they
need something, they'll take it. If they see
something interesting, they'll pick it up and
pocket it. A popular proverb defines a kender
heirloom as anything that remains for more
than three weeks inside a kender's home.


There are some other sections that give the impression that Kender are so carefree as to seem irresponsible, but when it comes to something important, they manage to get things done. So I imagine the blacksmith's hammers would be found. It would probably become something of a game for Kender to constantly reclaim and replace various items around town as they are needed. I like to think of them as chaotic in the extreme, but in a way that simply works.

 

[Green1]

You know, I have been sitting back soaking in others' opinions on this. After all, on another thread I was going WTF was the Drizzt hate about yet I would disallow Kender. I have since seen an example in thread of a responsible Kender player, so I need to rethink my policy on them or I am a hypocrite.

I do agree the way they are meant to be played is disruptive. I have even seen someone go way out of control with it back over a decade ago. I think that is where my disdain comes from as is with the Drizzt clones or whatever groan lame character concept of the era comes up. Though, I still maintain the Kender is a far worse offender

But, I started thinking.

There are TABLE RULES as well as backgrounds and concepts and GAME RULES and RP CONVENTIONS. While I am not going to throw a 3E Epic Level Handbook vengeful gaze of god spell at someone if they say "their character will do that" like an earlier poster suggested simular, I do think the health and welfare of the game takes precedent. The players MUST work well and not be douches and have fun TOGETHER. This is the old law that transcends character concept or even the DMG of any game or edition.

I reverse my decision. I doubt I will have to use this ammended clause because those are niche and based on older fantasy novels and DL doesn't get the press. But, I WILL let them play. I will even look up the 5E playtest stuff for them to do it proper. But, NOTHING can be done to screw other PCs and they can not hog spotlight like I do with any other PC. If they do otherwise, I talk to them in person and front of the group. It continues, I ask them to leave. But, I can not imagine someone wanting to play it. It seems to be a a trick concept and there are cooler things to play.

But, I stand corrected. Thank you, ENworld forumites!

 

[Green1]

I agree. I see it as kind of like the "lawful good, not lawful stupid" argument. For Kender it is "Fearless, not suicidal". Just because they don't feel fear doesn't mean they can't weigh up a situation and see that it is dangerous and may result in death.

Exactly.

I am thinking in the rare case someone asks to be one nowadays, Kender have immunity to fear and fear based effects. That would be a mechanical way of handling it. Even creatures immune to fear do have judgement unless they are mindless like some undead that are basically flesh robots.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I've DMed a couple of games with kender PCs. They worked just fine. The kender provided frequent comedy relief and once or twice a bit of party drama, but in the end they were there to help their friends and helped a lot more than they hurt.

So for me it's a simple yes, they are appropriate PCs.

 

[Elf Witch]

I played a lot of Dragonlance back in the day and we had several kender PCs and except for one they were never disruptive at the table. They added a lot of good nature humor. The one that was a pain was a pain as player no matter what he played.

I think for it to work the player playing the kender has to understanding the difference between borrowing and out right stealing. The way most played it was they picked up lose things that interested them but never important items that would cause another PC to be in deep crap if they thought they had it an actually didn't. And unlike say rogues who steal from the party they don't sell the items they give them back when asked if anyone happened to see the item.

As for the fear thing there is a difference between being fearless and being stupid with no self preservation instincts. And they do learn. There is nothing in the write up that says they are incapable of learning caution.

I do think that the entire table needs to be okay with having a kender in the party. It is no secret about kenders so it is not like the rest of the party are clueless about their nature.

I personally prefer a kender to a rogue who is just playing his character when he steals from the party, steals from the shopkeeper, the king, the church. And who drags the entire party into trouble when he is caught stealing from the shopkeeper, the king, and the church. And then add in the lone wold nature so many players of rogues seem to think is needed to play the character. I have more rogues disruptive harmony at the table then any other class or race.

I think any race or class is playable depending on the player, the DM and the make up of the rest of the players.

 

[Mephista]

Why?

Because that's the target audience. Not the elite. Furthermore.... there's absolutely nothing stopping you from playing a difficult character concept on ANYONE. Want to play a child-like character? Go up to your group and say, "hey, I want to run this concept, you guys okay with it?" You don't need a subrace devoted to it when the mechanics are basically the same as the Lightfoot Halfling. Simplicity within itself.

Difficult concepts are easy to make with any race.

There are classes and other mechanical options that are better suited for more experienced players.

None of the classes in 5e are designed with "more experienced players" in mind. It may be an accident that they're made that way, but that doesn't make them good. In fact, its a failure of design intent. The "advanced" options are firmly placed under Optional rules with the notice that they will alter your game.

Why shouldn't there be RP options that do the same? Why should every single role-playing concept be presented for beginners? Playing a non-human should require more thought and care than playing a human.

Races aren't the same as role playing concepts. Races are the general CULTURES and BIOLOGY of entire phenotypes. RP concepts are specific to the individual. "A child-like kender" isn't a concept. "Kender who wants revenge for death of family" is.

(Plus, the idea of "don't use RP as an excuse to ruin the game for everyone" should be RP 101, and driven home to beginning players, anyway.)

When the race is generally written to support disruptive behavior, then its not entirely the player's fault. Its the presentation's fault. You're encouraged to be a kleptomaniac with a short attentions span. Worse, the write up suggests how others see the kender's behavior, and the game falls apart if the GM or other players don't buy into that write up. Telling others how to play their characters is bad form, and that's exactly what the kender practically requires.

 

[Mouseferatu]

None of the classes in 5e are designed with "more experienced players" in mind. It may be an accident that they're made that way, but that doesn't make them good. In fact, its a failure of design intent. The "advanced" options are firmly placed under Optional rules with the notice that they will alter your game.

I fundamentally disagree. I think it's obvious from even casual inspection that--for instance--a wild magic sorcerer or an elemental monk are both a lot more complicated to play than a champion fighter. And I don't consider this a failure of design intent at all; some classes are simply more complex than others. That is 1) how it's always been, and 2) how I believe it should be. It allows for freedom of choice for people who prefer one style over the other, but it also--by definition--makes some options better suited to more experienced players.

As for the rest of it, everything I might say boils down to, "I strongly disagree based on both my preferences and my experience."

 

[Green1]

None of the classes in 5e are designed with "more experienced players" in mind. It may be an accident that they're made that way, but that doesn't make them good.

For years, with the exception of 4e, the fighter was the character you gave your little brother or sister. You roll your to hit. No special spells to keep track of save a few 3e feats. No need really to have a personal copy of the PHB or be lost. Just keep track of positioning and hit things. Roll a d20, add some stuff. You hit or not. Then RP how you feel your fighter is.

In 5e, this is the Champion Martial Archetype. Simple Abilities that are straightforward. No other issues to keep track of. The simple, classic no hassle fighter.

Spellcasters are a lot more demanding. Not to say a newbie could not do it. But, a steeper learning curve.

But... I digress.

 

[Mephista]

I see a lot of stereotypes applied to Kender in ways that aren't intended in the sourcebooks.

Semantics. Saying that kender have ideas of personal property but have no qualms about violating claims of personal property is just splitting hairs.

They do, and being called a thief is insulting to a Kender.

Still accurate, however. Its still knowingly taking someone else's goods, even if not maliciously.

Kender do not blindly ignore danger. Their fearlessness doesn't prevent them from acting cautiously when the need arises. Yes, when combined with their curiosity it can get them into trouble, but they do know when to run, if only to live to be curious another day.

More semantics. Curiosity overpowering one's fear and "getting into trouble" can be reasonably called ignoring danger.

These things and more are spelled out in the Kender descriptions within Dragonlance Adventures (1987). Does no one really read?

People read, yes. Nothing is really against what was spelled out in the description, though taken to exaggerated extremes in a few cases.

There ARE tribal societies with no concept of personal property. Some only have tribal property, and some have tribal and familial, but not personal.

As a matter of survival in a region where goods are scarce and sharing is the only way for the group as a whole to thrive. Kender don't live in such a tribal society. They're living alongside humans (note that I don't see mention of kender living in elven or dwarven societies) who do have plenty. Furthermore, even in these sharing-tribal societies everything has its place so everyone can use them. Kender pick up and wander off with things, keeping them from being used for their necessary function.

Truthfully, I assume kender society is treated much like orc society - the logistics are handwaved away to allow the race as written to function, despite being unsustainable without some tweaks.

As to tolerating them? If they happily share surplus seed corn... People put up with organized crime... People put up with living in graveyards and landfills. Kender are no worse, and friendly, helpful, and of good cheer....

As a matter of survival because there's no other alternative. Not willingly. If a viable way of removing the crime and improving living conditions came along, I promise you only those mentally damaged wouldn't take it.

The mere fact we have to compare kender to dangerous criminals and pest-infested living conditions says something, imho.

I fundamentally disagree. I think it's obvious from even casual inspection that--for instance--a wild magic sorcerer or an elemental monk are both a lot more complicated to play than a champion fighter. And I don't consider this a failure of design intent at all; some classes are simply more complex than others. That is 1) how it's always been, and 2) how I believe it should be. It allows for freedom of choice for people who prefer one style over the other, but it also--by definition--makes some options better suited to more experienced players.

Complexity in these cases does not, under any circumstance, translate to "for advanced players." That is specifically against the design goal of the 5e game; if the (sub-)classes in these cases ended up that way, it was purely unintentional and against the stated goal of the core book, and thus a failure.

Further, I've seen new players sit down and play these complex classes without a problem. The two are not on the same level at all. Advanced mechanical options are the ones that require system mastery, and the base classes (no feats/multi-class) in 5e are designed around requiring little to no system mastery. Its easy to play a wild mage with little system mastery. And the elemental monk is hardly difficult to play at all. You sit down and buy up the abilities you want.

As for the rest of it, everything I might say boils down to, "I strongly disagree based on both my preferences and my experience."

So, in short, you agree to disagree? But I don't agree with your disagreeing!

 

[Umbran]

They do, and being called a thief is insulting to a Kender. They just have an insatiable curiosity that drives them to pick up everything. They will certainly return an item if the owner asks for for it. They were merely looking at it, keeping it from getting lost, thought the owner didn't want it anymore, etc.

With all due respect to you...

That is a nonsense rationalization of what is still, in effect, "I will not respect your personal property". I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they don't understand it, rather than be just lying thieves - "It must have fallen into my pocket? The thing weighs three pounds, you little creep!". If you will take off with it without permission, and never give it back unless they figure out who took it, hunt you down and ask for it back, that's not alternate understanding of ownership. That's *THEFT*. That the kender hates being called a thief doesn't mean they aren't one. People often hate being told the truth about themselves, when that truth isn't complimentary.

That shows a level of understanding...

...and if they understand, a level of disrespect....

I suspect all of what we have for kender stems from the poor worldbuilding decision to make an entire species in Krynn match the first PC of the type. It is the typical "monoculture" style that falls apart when you look at it with a critical eye. It would be a heck of a lot simpler if they said, "Tasselhoff Burrfoot was wandering around on Krynn because his fellow kender found him to be a right pain in the neck and kicked him out. In reality, they are a lot like halflings elsewhere...."

Not that Krynn gnomes are any more sensible...