Killing innocents - a paladin thread in disguise ;-)

[Thanee]

I'd love to see Thanee's point of view. Do you (Thanee) think you did the right thing?

I think I did the only thing. I still don't see any other option, that would have had any reasonable chance of success (apart from metagaming and assuming that the DM would not just kill us ).

As for the 'railroading' - I'm fairly sure it was not planned like this, but rather the situation was born out of our offer to have the victims reincarnated.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

In some cultures, the captain of a ship is 100% in charge of the ship. Refusal to follow his orders would be a very serious crime. Not to mention killing the captain.

That would apply to us. The captain is 100% in charge of his ship.

And fireballing the captain is surely against the law.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

now, does the PC show remorse for having just slain what most likely are innocent pawns?

She certainly does not enjoy the thought, but in her opinion, it was the only thing she could do and had to do. It was the only way to ensure safety.

does the PC go on a killing rampage and boom the rest of the crew, the passengers, her friends?

Yeah, right!

what does she take? what are her orders afterwards?

As said above, the now-highest-ranked guy on the ship was told, that he is in full command.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Conaill]

Hmm... you said you "could have escaped quite easily". So why not get out of that room first, and *then* start MM'ing them until they're down? Or just start flinging aroun MM's while you're in the room, and take a few sword hits if need be. If you're 7th and they're 1st or 2nd, you can probably absorb a round or two of damage.

Seems to me your sorceress took the easy way out...

 

[Thanee]

Hmm... you said you "could have escaped quite easily". So why not get out of that room first, and *then* start MM'ing them until they're down?

Because then I have to fight (and likely kill) even more than I did.

If you're 7th and they're 1st or 2nd, ...

Yeah, I knew that after the Fireball, but not before. I was sure the guards are low-level and suspected the priest to be low-level, because he could not learn any useful spells.

And there were still five opponents total, and once they were close, the Fireball option was out.

And besides, then I would have had to kill all five of them... or do you think they would have given up the fight after one Magic Missile?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gothic_Demon]

I think I did the only thing. I still don't see any other option, that would have had any reasonable chance of success (apart from metagaming and assuming that the DM would not just kill us ).

I'm not sure I agree, but fair comment. BTW, as DM, I would've killed you without a second thought if it came to it. (My players know better than to assume I'll save them at any point!)

 

[Thanee]

BTW, as DM, I would've killed you without a second thought if it came to it. (My players know better than to assume I'll save them at any point!)

That's what I assumed, altho I really didn't think it would happen, but it's what should have happened realistically, since there really wasn't anything preventing him from killing us (the murderer, not the DM), if we are completely defenseless. Just poison our food, and they would probably even go as far to say we should stop pretending we were poisoned in order to get out of the chains...

That's the primary reason (including the follow-up of what would come out of that, as explained above) why I found it completely unacceptable to not stop them, because I saw it as choosing certain death.

As I said, I do not consider the metagaming option to be an actual option.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gothic_Demon]

That's the primary reason (including the follow-up of what would come out of that, as explained above) why I found it completely unacceptable to not stop them, because I saw it as choosing certain death.

I've made an assumption here, and that is the captain intended to lock you up and hand you over to the authorities. Otherwise, he'd just have turned up at your cabin with a big bunch of sailors, grabbed you lot and thrown you overboard.
Thus, you are expecting a poisoner, someone who is most likely to try and poison your prison food and kill you that way. Don't eat. For a few days it's not going to kill you, and if you can slip your bonds I'm sure your exalted Druid could rustle up something for you to eat. Or even a purify food and drink spell?
I'm trying to see if there was another option for you. I think there was:
1. Let yourself be chained.
2. Get stuck in the brig with the rest of your friends.
3. Druid shapechanges to escape chains, then helps you out as well. (Rusting grasp?)
4. Test food. Stay alive. Wait for poisoner to come down and finish the job in person.
5. Kill poisoner and prove your innocence.

If there are any other considerations I've missed let me know.

BTW: I'm not sure decent level Paladins, Druids and Sorcerers are ever to be considered completely helpless...

 

[Thanee]

I've made an assumption here, and that is the captain intended to lock you up and hand you over to the authorities.

While not entirely sure, I assume the same. Plus, that the captain truely thinks, that there is no murderer free on the ship anymore, once we are under arrest. Plus, that the real murderer is close enough to the captain to be able to do whatever he wants, basically. He could slip the poison into the paladin's backpack while the equipment was under the captain's safekeeping!

Don't eat.

That surely won't work long enough.

Or even a purify food and drink spell?

Yeah, as if they would let us cast spells then.

I'm trying to see if there was another option for you. I think there was:
1. Let yourself be chained.
2. Get stuck in the brig with the rest of your friends.
3. Druid shapechanges to escape chains, then helps you out as well. (Rusting grasp?)
4. Test food. Stay alive. Wait for poisoner to come down and finish the job in person.
5. Kill poisoner and prove your innocence.

If there are any other considerations I've missed let me know.

Yeah, you missed the main question... what then?

Let's assume, that we actually manage to get out of the chains, which I consider at least unlikely to happen without getting into a huge fight right away at the very least.

That surely proves our guilt to the captain and he would then not ask us, but rather come with a bunch of sailors to overwhelm us and kill us. And then we would have no armor, no weapons and no material components.

So, what then?

And how exactly should we prove our innocence, if the captain doesn't believe a single word we are saying, the murderer has long removed or hidden away any evidence, and there is no other spellcaster who is able to detect the truth or something equally helpful?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thia Halmades]

Eh, my answer stands:

- Short game, valid solution. My understanding of what Thanee is saying (without conferring with the other two players or the DM) is that she was, AFASWC, utterly out of options. It was kill or be screwed. Charm might not have worked; Hold Person might've been an option, if she had it and they failed their saves. That leaves the same problem; you're still considered criminals.

Sub query: At what point is the Paladin reasonably allowed to defend herself with the use of deadly force, against 'innocent' targets? If you've seen Tri-Gun, the answer is "never." At no point does Vash ever take down a civilian, because he's Lawful Good in an unlawful world. He does lots of chaotic things, but his code is clear and he never deviates from it. Not once. He doesn't even kill people who deserve, simply incapacitates them.

Further point from prior post with Gothic Demon: I can (and did, with some revision) say that the Paladin can be relieved without having done it (or been involved, etc. - just because they're relieved doesn't mean they're HAPPY, two separate feelings on the issue) and further said that in the immediate term, the Code would force the Paladin to likely arrest Thanee, if the PC chose to go that route, they'd be in the right.

However. I still find no fault with Thanee's CG actions in terms of her view of what was strictly necessary to ensure survival and options. She posits a valid argument: I either tac-nuke these three people here, put the fear of GOD into the rest of the crew, get us where we're going and move on, or flounder in a cell without control over my destination. This is a great moral dilemma, and great RP.