Kir-Lanan ECL...

[kreynolds]

Full plate has a Max Dex bonus of +1, so it all depends on where the fighter's dex score is at. Still, +3 is nothing to sneeze at, and there's always mithril or something similar.

That's a good point about the mithril armor and the Dex bonus. Well, that shoots that part of my argument right out the window.

Set aside the calculator for a bit and look at the numbers that I posted. ECL 4 is way too low.

Well, I wasn't using a calculator. As I said last night, I was comparing the Kir-Lanan with actual 6th and 8th level characters. I think I might have gotten stuck on the supernatural and spell-like abilities bit. I suppose you might be right. I'll have to look into it a little more. Still, even though a Kir-Lanan is equal to a 6th level fighter in melee, there's one big problem. Healing. The fighter can be healed as much as possible. The Kir-Lanan can only heal itself using the fighter 3 times. After that, it has to rely on negative energy spells or potions for healing. Granted, I could metagame and load up the Kir-Lanan with a few Inflict Light Wounds potions, but that's still a big drawback. Conventional healing doesn't work for the poor guy, and the reduction in ECL because of it is fine with me.

I guess I agree that +4 is too low, but I'm just not sure about +6. I'll look at it some more and see if I can't broaden my perspective on this a bit. Thanks for your help.

 

[drnuncheon]

Depending, of course, on armor choices -- and IIRC, the Kir Lanaan do not wear traditional PHB-style armor; they have their own, racial armor which is the equivalent of Leather, only. As a flying creature, I fail to see how most forms of Heavy-class armor would permit continued flight, while being worn. Even Mithril Full Plate would be too restrictive, or, would have to leave large swaths of the Kir-Lanan uncovered (the wings, and areas around the wing-shoulders ...).

The kir-lanan racial armor is the equivalent of studded leather. The PHB says 'flying mounts can't fly in medium or heavy barding' - if we assume that is the case for the kir-lanan, then he'd want to buy a mithril breastplate.

Since kreynolds thinks the full plate will rob the kir-lanan of its dex advantage, I guess we can assume that the human fighter has Dex 12, and the kir-lanan would therefore have Dex 14 - giving it +10 AC total to the full plated human's +9, plus better movement and a lower armor check penalty.

Also, your count of feats is slightly off. A human Fighter-8 should have 8 feats (racial; character levels 1, 3, and 6; fighter levels 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8); the Kir-Lanan will have 4 feats (racial/monster levels; character level 1; fighter levels 1 and 2). That's a gap one wider than you listed. Also note, the Fighter's higher BAB qualifies him (IIRC) for Improved Critical, not to mention having enough fighter levels for Weapon Specialisation. That's a bit of further advantage to the human fighter, IMO.

Hmm. +2 damage on one weapon, vs +2 damage on all weapons. I don't think the human fighter gets the advanatge just because he gets Specialization earlier.

You're right on the feats thing, I neglected to figure character-level feats. Still, I don't think 6 feats is too high a price to pay for everything you get.

Given we're talking about an FRCS race, I feel quite confident in pointing out that the fighter can catch up -- and then some -- for well less than 40,000gp. There are several methods to get flight -- usable at will -- other than Wings of Flying. The Winged Mask, IIRC, from Magic of Faerun, is significantly cheaper (for the minor drawback of highlighting your presence whenever you fly).

I am of the firm belief that the Winged Mask was the result of crack-smoking sessions at the WOTC labs, and fully expect it to be erratta'ed - I mean, compare it to the winged boots: 12 times the duration for an extra 1000 gp. But until that point you're right...although we should also remember that the kir-lanan now has 2 magic item slots open that the human fighter does not (amulet and cloak or mask, depending on how you buy your flight).

Also, the fighter can gain +3 natural AC, as you noted, from the Amulet. For the Kir-Lanan to get the same +3 armor beyond their base state, costs SIGNIFICANTLY more than it cost the fighter.

Only if they're focused on getting it as natural armor. They could spend the same amount as the fighter spent and get a ring of protection, like I noted. (And if the fighter got a ring of protection, they could get a different AC enhancer as well.) Only if the fighter bought every type of AC booster would he be able to catch up.

Of course, this is also assuming that the kir-lanan and the fighter make the exact same choices all down the line. The kir-lanan could very easily put a lower die roll into his strength score to maximize his Dex, catching him up on the AC scale. He's got access to feats the fighter doesn't, like flyby attack, improved flight, wingover, and snatch (hey! improved grab!). You might not get the automatic damage in most cases, but size doesn't restrict the fact that you can grapple without an AoO - or the fact that you can fling or drop your opponent.

Maybe we should actually create example characters to compare? That might show up the differences far better than just a conversation. Not-Sean, would that help you?

J

 

[kreynolds]

Maybe we should actually create example characters to compare? That might show up the differences far better than just a conversation. Not-Sean, would that help you?

I think it might. Worth a shot, you know?

 

[drnuncheon]

I think it might. Worth a shot, you know?

I'll assume you have your DMG - so compare the following two to the NPC Fighter at level 8.

Kir-lanan (ECL 4)/Ftr4: Sz M; HD 4d8+4d10+16; hp 59*; Init +6; Spd 30 ft, fly 90 ft (good); AC 24 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, +5 armor, +3 shield, +1 deflection); Atk +15/+10 melee (+1 bastard sword, 1d10+8), +11/+6 ranged (comp longbow, 1d8+4); SA spell-like abilities; SQ damaged by positive energy; SV Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +5; Str 20, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8

Skills and Feats: Escape Artist +4, Hide +10, Listen +6, Move Silently +6, Spot +6, Use Magic Device +6**; Flyby attack, EWP: bastard sword, Improved Initiative, WF: Bastard Sword, Power Attack, WS: Bastard Sword.

Equipment: As Ftr8, except: replace the +1 full plate (2650 gp) with +1 chain shirt (1250 gp). Sell potions (duh). Spend 2000 gold saved on ring of protection +1.

* - hp assumes that one of the racial d8s is maximum.
** - being no dummy, our kir-lanan maxed this out, but it can't go any higher. The rest of the skills are all cross-class when bought with the fighter's skill points, but they greatly increase the kir-lanan's versatility. Besides, it's not like he needs Ride, Climb, or Jump...still, gives him at least a chance of using an inflict wand on himself. No good for combat, but...

Comparing that to the NPC fighter ought to show how superior the kir-lanan is at ECL 4.

Assuming it was ECL 6 instead:

Kir-lanan (ECL 6)/Ftr2: Sz M; HD 4d8+2d10+16; hp 48*; Init +6; Spd 30 ft, fly 90 ft (good); AC 24 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, +5 armor, +3 shield, +1 deflection); Atk +12/+8 melee (+1 bastard sword, 1d10+5), +9/+4 ranged (comp longbow, 1d8+4); SA spell-like abilities; SQ damaged by positive energy; SV Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +4; Str 19, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8

Skills and Feats: Escape Artist +4, Hide +10, Listen +5, Move Silently +6, Spot +5, Use Magic Device +6**; Flyby attack, EWP: bastard sword, Improved Initiative, WF: Bastard Sword.

Equipment: As Ftr8, except: replace the +1 full plate (2650 gp) with +1 chain shirt (1250 gp). Sell potions (duh). Spend 2000 gold saved on ring of protection +1.

Now you're actually talking some tradeoffs here. Slightly lower hit and damage potential than the fighter, still a better AC, still better skills, still far better mobility with the flight. I'd still say it was worth it.

If you want to go a slightly different route, you could drop the weapons altogether and use your claws - I would think that Snatch would be a great feat for that. The bonus is that, unlike regular 2WF you get full strength bonus on both claw attacks - and of course, WF and WS apply to both with a single feat. The downside is you can't tack on the I2WF and later feats for more hitting potential, and you're doing base 1d4.

If using the Book of Vile Darkness, you might also spend feats on things like Boost Spell-Like Ability, Violate Spell-Like Ability, or Empower Spell-Like Ability - the latter would probably be a must-have just for the healing bonus.

J

 

[drnuncheon]

Forgot to add: we've mostly been comparing stuff 'in a fight' - the kir-lanan's wings and skills make them /vastly/ better out of a fight than the human fighter, letting them act as a first-class scout. A kir-lanan rogue would be even better, of course! I may look at that next...

J

 

[kreynolds]

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[dkilgo]

Since kreynolds thinks the full plate will rob the kir-lanan of its dex advantage, I guess we can assume that the human fighter has Dex 12, and the kir-lanan would therefore have Dex 14 - giving it +10 AC total to the full plated human's +9, plus better movement and a lower armor check penalty.
J

They would both have +9 AC because the max dex bonus for fullplate is +1 not +2. In that reguard both characters would balance out.

Let's choose a different armor...

I still say that it is an ECL +4. Only because that his spell-like abilities drastically decrease with level advancement. Without magical assistance, of course. Yes, the kir-lanan gets a really nice attack and damage bonus, but if you recall the kir-lanan's favoured class is FIGHTER. So, yes, they are going to be tough, but not impossible. Also, the base creature in the FRCS is designed to handle four second level characters, hence CR 2. Do you think that a fourth level fighter would be able to handle a party of four 2nd level characters? Yes, or course, you do. These creatures are going to be tough at lower levels, but as they gain levels, or HD, they balance out. They eventually gain the same level of abilities as a base ECL +0 character at 20 level.

Think about it! Your figures, thus far, have basically demonstrated the power flux from low level to high level. But, have you not, stepped back and looked at how balanced they might actually be. You have been comparing these two beings as if they were identical. Well, I don't mean to break your heart, but they are not identical. They are different, and that means they are going to have different abilities. And, the balance for those abilities have already been plainly examined. You just refuse to see it because you are stuck on this whole flight thing being the most awesome.

Well, yes flight has its benefits, but that does not make unbeatable. All the fighter would have to do is bring the proper reach weapons with him to the fight. Which he would if he had any sense, or fore thought, at all. Granted on a random encounter this fighter stands a good chance of getting his turkey cooked, but if he were properly equiped he could handle this fight. Maybe not completely unscathed (like you would like it. It would seem.), but would survive.

These are my thoughts. What have you to say?

 

[drnuncheon]

They would both have +9 AC because the max dex bonus for fullplate is +1 not +2. In that reguard both characters would balance out.

Let's choose a different armor...

I think you need to read more carefully. I was assuming a Dex 12 human in full plate vs. a Dex 14 kir-lanan in a mithril breastplate. Human = +8 armor, +1 dex, total +9. Kir-lanan = +5 armor, +3 natural, +2 dex, total +10.

If you're concerned about the equipment allowances being equal, then look at my example statblocks, which have equal equipment costs to those in the DMG's example NPCs. The kir-lanan still winds up with an AC better than the human fighter.

So in that regard the characters do not balance out.

I still say that it is an ECL +4. Only because that his spell-like abilities drastically decrease with level advancement.

Gee, that's weird, because the numbers I'm seeing are equal or better than the equivalent level fighter, even without taking the spell-like abilities into account. Those spell-like abilities must really suck if they are able to bring the kir-lanan's power down.

Well, yes flight has its benefits, but that does not make unbeatable. All the fighter would have to do is bring the proper reach weapons with him to the fight. Which he would if he had any sense, or fore thought, at all. Granted on a random encounter this fighter stands a good chance of getting his turkey cooked, but if he were properly equiped he could handle this fight. Maybe not completely unscathed (like you would like it. It would seem.), but would survive.

These are my thoughts. What have you to say?

I think you are very confused as to what I am saying. At no point have I believed that the fighter should emerge unscathed in a fight between the two, and I'm not sure where you got that impression. I also think that ECL is not meant to handle pitting characters against each other*, which is the mistaken impression that you seem to have. I am comparing two players, one playing a human fighter, the other playing a kir-lanan fighter.

If you were playing an 8th level human fighter, and someone joined the campaign and had better combat abilities, the ability to fly, and spell-like abilities, wouldn't you feel a little overshadowed? I would. I'd be intensely annoyed at the DM for allowing it to happen, too.

What advantage does the fighter have to compare with all the stuff the kir-lanan gets? Should he merely console himself with the thought of his whopping 4 extra hitpoints? Do improved critical, cleave, point-blank shot, and a first-level feat of your choice make up for flight, natural armor, spell-like abilities, better stats, better skills, better saves...?

I don't think so. Do you?

At ECL 4, the kir-lanan is going to hit more often. He's going to do more damage when he hits. He's going to be hit less often. In short, he's going to beat the fighter of equivalent level in his area of specialty - which is to say beating on the other guy - and we haven't even started on his other special abilities.

J

* - even if it were, your tactics wouldn't help the human any. The kir-lanan can just as easily use a reach weapon - or even a ranged weapon - negating the human's advantage.

 

[dkilgo]

I think you need to read more carefully. I was assuming a Dex 12 human in full plate vs. a Dex 14 kir-lanan in a mithril breastplate. Human = +8 armor, +1 dex, total +9. Kir-lanan = +5 armor, +3 natural, +2 dex, total +10.

In retrospect on this matter I appologize, but you were not very specific about the armor types the creatures were using. Or, I just misread. I apoologize.

Gee, that's weird, because the numbers I'm seeing are equal or better than the equivalent level fighter, even without taking the spell-like abilities into account. Those spell-like abilities must really suck if they are able to bring the kir-lanan's power down.

In a manner of speaking, yes they do. Only because they get less effective as the kir-lanan advances in level.

I think you are very confused as to what I am saying. At no point have I believed that the fighter should emerge unscathed in a fight between the two, and I'm not sure where you got that impression. I also think that ECL is not meant to handle pitting characters against each other*, which is the mistaken impression that you seem to have. I am comparing two players, one playing a human fighter, the other playing a kir-lanan fighter.

What is the difference between two players, and two characters? Aren't they the same thing?

If you were playing an 8th level human fighter, and someone joined the campaign and had better combat abilities, the ability to fly, and spell-like abilities, wouldn't you feel a little overshadowed? I would. I'd be intensely annoyed at the DM for allowing it to happen, too.

So what you are saying is that you are a sore looser, and you want to take your kick ball and go home. So what if your not the star attraction of the entire party anymore. It's not a movie strictly about the life and times of your character. It's a story about the lives of the entire party. I am almost certain that your character would find some way to prevail... or maybe not.

What advantage does the fighter have to compare with all the stuff the kir-lanan gets? Should he merely console himself with the thought of his whopping 4 extra hitpoints? Do improved critical, cleave, point-blank shot, and a first-level feat of your choice make up for flight, natural armor, spell-like abilities, better stats, better skills, better saves...?

I'm not quite sure, yet. But, I am certain I will come up with it.

At ECL 4, the kir-lanan is going to hit more often. He's going to do more damage when he hits. He's going to be hit less often. In short, he's going to beat the fighter of equivalent level in his area of specialty - which is to say beating on the other guy - and we haven't even started on his other special abilities.

Are you sure about this 100%?

* - even if it were, your tactics wouldn't help the human any. The kir-lanan can just as easily use a reach weapon - or even a ranged weapon - negating the human's advantage.

Tactics is all that a fight between these two characters/players would be about. They are so similar, minus the spell-like abilities, it really isn't funny. But, what, may I ask, is this fighter doing fighting a CR 2 creature by itself? By all rights a base kir-lanan would mop the floor with a 4th level fighter. That is just the way the system works. I'm sorry. Remember it would take four 2nd level charcters to bring this creature down. What makes you think a single 4th level fighter could do it without a little trouble?

 

[drnuncheon]

In a manner of speaking, yes they do. Only because they get less effective as the kir-lanan advances in level.

So you think they are so bad, they are actually a penalty to the character? Their very presence makes the character weaker than the character would be without them? Uh...right.

What is the difference between two players, and two characters? Aren't they the same thing?

You fail to understand what I meant. There are more ways of comparing two creatures than "Who'd win". Since ECL is a factor (and not CR), we assume that the human and the kir-lanan are on the same side. Therefore, it makes sense to compare their performance, not against each other, but against the foes they both face. And when you do that, the kir-lanan outperforms the fighter.

So what you are saying is that you are a sore looser, and you want to take your kick ball and go home. So what if your not the star attraction of the entire party anymore. It's not a movie strictly about the life and times of your character. It's a story about the lives of the entire party. I am almost certain that your character would find some way to prevail... or maybe not.

Do you have some sort of problem with me, that you are trying to make this personal?

"At ECL 4, the kir-lanan is going to hit more often. He's going to do more damage when he hits. He's going to be hit less often. In short, he's going to beat the fighter of equivalent level in his area of specialty - which is to say beating on the other guy - and we haven't even started on his other special abilities."

Are you sure about this 100%?

Yeah, actually. That was the whole purpose of me putting up a statblock for the 4th level kir-lanan fighter, so you could compare it to the 8th level fighter from the DMG. Assuming they're fighting the same foe:

He's going to hit more often because he has a higher attack bonus.
He's going to do more damage because he has a higher strength bonus.
He's going to be hit less often because he has a higher AC.

I'm not quite sure, yet. But, I am certain I will come up with it.

You go do that, then. Let me know if you come up with anything.

J