Knight base class

[Ivocles]

1st post!

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/print/BkOMDfWPg?dialog=true

I have been working on this class for a while and i feel it is a good alternative for other martial classes.
Check it out and tell me what you think.

 

[Istbor]

I like a lot of what I read here, but I feel that any Knight who want's to have a two-handed weapon is going to feel left out. Formally Trained is nice, but perhaps there instead should be the typical fighting style a lot of 5E martial classes get, or if nothing else a simple nod some where to weapons that are heavier. Heck, even using a versatile weapon with two hands grants no additional bonus.

As a lover of martial archtypes, if feel that something needs to be included to support weapons other than one handed martial versatile. The art even depicts a lot of two handed swords. I don't have a suggestion at the moment however, as I am at work. I may post later with something if I should find the time.

 

[BookBarbarian]

In real world terms a Plate Armor typically made a shield superfluous so most Knight's would use a two handed weapon, or use a free hand for grappling and a one handed or versatile weapon.

Now the Knightly Shield-Bearer is a bit of a fantasy trope and should be represented in the game, but leaving out the two-handed options is in my opinion a mistake.

That aside there are some cool parts to this class, but overall it seems pretty niche for a base class. I would love to see it reworked as a Fighter subclass.

 

[cbwjm]

Cool class, on the whole, I like it, although I feel like maybe they should have a list of fighting styles to choose from, the order of the sword to me screams greatsword and I'd like there to be the option of choose the appropriate fighting style. I'd probably limit them to: duelling, protection, defence, and great-weapon fighting.

Fighting challenge seems integral to the concept, it might be worth giving the knight additional uses per short rest as they level up at a similar rate to the barbarian's rage (+1 use at 3rd, 6th, 12th, and 17th level) or the cleric's channel divinity (+1 use at 6th and 18th level).

I'm also not sure about the proficiency boost at level 20, but then it is the capstone ability so it may be okay. I'd be more inclined to make it something similar to the barbarian with stat boosts that can push a score above 20.

 

[Ivocles]

Thanks for the replies everyone, they are really useful to end up with a balanced and interesting class.

As for the formally trained feature, you get a small boost in damage, but you are not locked out of two-handed fighting altogether.
You can still use the knight protector ability using two-handed fighting.

Also, the order of the sword gives various advantages for using two-handed fighting over sword and board.

- you do more damage, so you gain more temp. Hitpoints from the lvl 11 feature.
- More damage = higher chance to proc the great cleave feature
- higher damage die = bigger crits

Does anyone have a suggestion for a small boost to two-handed?
How about: when wielding a weapon in both hands, increase your Armor Class by 1.

The knight is trained in parrying and deflecting blows after all.
I do think this would make a dip in Knight a bit strong

 

[TallIan]

Mostly looks ok.

My one concern is only a problem if you allow multiclassing. In this case its far too easy to get a nearly free extra fighting style by level dipping into this class.

 

[Blue]

I'm a fan of uncluttered rules, where less is more. So I'm going to look at this from another perspective.

1. Once you take out math bonuses what does this give you that can't be replicated with an existing class? What class features are unique and unlike ones you can get elsewhere.

By math bonuses, I'm talking about things like an average +1 extra damage with Formally Trained, or the +1 to +3 from the 2nd level benefit of Fighting Challenge.

2. Is there enough unique left to justify a whole class? Can it be fit into a subclass or feat instead?

Subclasses are easy ways to leverage existing rules if you have a lot of overlap. It also stops Next Class X/Existing Class Y multiclasses where you can double down on bonuses.

Feats open things up for multiple classes to go for them, or to extend a background. Someone with the Noble (Knight) background and the feat might be able to fulfill what you are looking for while leveraging existing class(es).

I'm not saying that your class should be a subclass or a feat, I'm saying here's some criteria on if this class adds enough unique abilities and covers flavor that you can't already do with the existing classes.

 

[manduck]

So, I'm going to ask a tough question here. What role does your Knight class fill that a Fighter or Paladin doesn't fill? There are some cool ideas here, but they ultimately only replicate what other martial classes already do. I like where you went with the sub classes, as that's what sprung to mind to me. Going Sword, Sheild and Mounted Combat with the sub classes just feels natural and fits.

Though when I read through this, I found that the features were essentially a pre-selected fighter or paladin build. In actuality, an Oath of the Crown Paladin is far more effective as a Knight as you've described in your homebrew. With Oath of the Crown, you get the challenge ability, resistances, a bodyguard feature that lets you soak damage for an ally, and ways to deal with hoards. So a Crown paladin can wade into a sea of combatants, call out the big bad and protect his friends. In addition, they have the paladin base, which gives them a choice of martial fighting styles, which includes protection if they want it. Really, it's the players choice, versus the class just choosing one for them. Then add in that Paladins get Compelled Duel anyway, plus lots of other spells. A paladin wanting to focus on mounted combat can summon a magical mount whenever they want. Some Knight class features can be replicated with feats. Great Cleave is essentially GWM without the GW requirement. Which is ok, but not enough of a standout to make me choose Knight over Paladin, considering everything else in the paladin package.

So what niche are you looking to fill with your Knight class? It seems to me that what you've presented is already covered. The fantasy knight or knight from legend is supposed to be represented in the paladin class. The martial soldier or non magical knight is easily represented in the Fighter. A Fighter with the Sentinel feat can essentially do the same thing as a Knight with their challenge, lock down an enemy. Plus the Fighter can do it without requiring a save. Just walk over to the bad guy and swing away whenever they try to escape.

I think you need to find a way to make a new class more unique. I also hope I didn't come across too harsh. Just trying to get you to think about a role that needs to be covered in game that you can do in a unique way. A lot of what you've presented is more of a mash up of already existing class features from classes that do the job really effectively.

 

[Ivocles]

Hello Manduck,

I feel that the paladin is a very different beast than the knight. The Paladin is has to follow its tenets, uses magic, and channels the power of his god to smite his opponents. Also i feel that home brewing abilities compared to the paladin's power level would be blasted into the ground, paladin is pretty insane.

Some people like to play fantastical but still nonmagical classes.

You could make a fighter with high charisma, protection fighting style and defender, but it wouldn't be a very sticky tank. A fighter with his extra attacks will always be a better attacker than a defender. The knight could lock down multiple opponents at once and be a more dedicated support class (if going order of the shield)
i'm playing a purple dragon knight (protection fighting style), but it still doesn't quite fit the bill i feel.

The Great cleave feature is deliberately similar to the great weapon master feat. A dedicated great weapon knight could reduce an opponent to 0hp or crit, get his free attack with Great Cleave, and use his bonus action for another attack with GWM or use its bonus action to activate a free fighting challenge.

The niche would be
Order of the shield: Dedicated defender/Support (however nothing stops you from playing a 2-handed OotS knight)
Order of the sword: Defender/Striker (likewise, you could play a two handed or Sword and board OotS knight)
Order of the gilded spurs: Dedicated mounted combat.

 

[Ivocles]

I have a few alternatives to Formally trained, , and does not lock you into any playing style.
Let me know which one you think fits the best
Lv1: Formally trained

1) Your knightly training focuses on defending yourself from using various guards and stances. you know how to protect your more vulnerable areas.
Bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage you take is reduced by an amount equal to half your proficiency bonus. you must be aware of the attack for this ability to activate.

2) Your knightly training focuses on defending yourself from attacks using various guards and stances. you know how to guard your more vulnerable areas.
When an opponent rolls a critical hit on an attack against you, you may use your reaction to make your opponent reroll the attack.

3) You train on your swings until they are perfected every single time.
Once per turn, when you roll a 1 on an attack or damage roll, you may reroll it. You must use the new result.