D&D 3E/3.5 Knightfall's "Humanoids + Templates = Fun" Thread (Retired)

[Kitsunekaboom]

The Half-Titan template is from Legends & Lairs: Monster's Handbook from Fantasy Flight Games. I somehow get the feeling that players won't like me for this one.

Troll Lords (Half-Titan Half-Troll)
Large Outsider
Hit Dice: 6d8+48 (74)
Initiative: +2 (+2 Dex)
Speed: 30 Ft
AC: 18 (-1 Size, +2 Dex, +7 Natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +12 melee, bite +7 melee
Damage: Claw 1d6+9, bite 1d6+4
Face/Reach: 5 Ft. By 5ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+12, Spell-Like abilities
Special Qualities: Regeneration 5, scent, darkvision 90 ft., damage reduction: 10/+1, SR: 15
Saves: Fort: +13 Ref: +4 Will: +5
Abilities: Str:29, Dex:14, Con:27, Int:12, Wis:13, Cha:8
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Blind Fighting, Iron Will
Climate/Terrain: Any land, aquatic, and underground
Organization: Solitary or Gang (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class

An evil titan once came to a troll tribe, offered to give the trolls the power of the Titans, for no other reason than destroying a nearby good aligned kingdom. After a few generations of breeding the trolls of that tribe now have power unequaled. The kingdom was easily destroyed, and the Troll Lords rule in the burned and ruined castle. They keep a tribe of goblins as pets and slave and live a rather bohemian life. Some have been known to hire themselves out as mercenaries. Other trolls quickly learn that one of the Troll Lords can deal with whole bands of their lesser cousins.

Combat

Damage Reduction (Ex): Troll Lords ignore the first 10 points of damage dealt to them unless the weapon is +1 or greated quality.

Rend (Ex): If a troll hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 2d6+12 points of damage.

Regeneration (Ex): Fire and acid deal normal damage to a troll.
If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Spell-Like abilities: at will – alter self, invisibility, levitate, mirror image as 20th level sorcerer

 

[Greybar]

Yow. That's a shame. After high praise from others, Monster's Handbook was on the top of my to-buy list. If this Half-Titan template is an example, I think I'll just continue making them up on my own.

1) Damage Reduction 10. The Titan from the SRD has 15/+1, so the PCs can bypass it pretty easily. A blanket DR10 is tough, and would be tough even on the high-CR Titan. If this was DR 10/+1 is would at least be close to the WOTC templates (fiendish, celestial, half-elemental)

2) Spell casting abilities as 20th level sorcerer. Cribbed from the SRD for Titan with no readjustment? While the list of spells is not an overly offensive one, there is no reason to give a 7 HD creature a caster level of 20. This makes the spells undispelable to the intended PC opponents (level 7).

My last objection is a more common one. This troll is well-known to be nasty when combined with templates (ex: the infamous "unkillable" half-fiend troll). This template is no exception due to the aforementioned absurd DR. If your group cannot regularly deal multiple strikes above 10 pts of damage, you are doomed by the regeneration 5. Combine this with the fact that the 20th level alter self is going to mean that the party certainly isn't going to think "troll" and you have an all-too easy TPK on your hands. The 20th level invisibility at will means that the smart (Int 12) Troll Lord is going to eat your party for breakfast. To add insult to injury, the Iron Will feat tries to cover the only weakness - note that the Will save should be +5 without the Iron Will since the Troll's wisdom went from 9 to 13 in applying the template.

I believe one Troll Lord would easily TPK my players (7 PCs of 8th and 9th level). TPK would only be prevented by someone fleeing under a fly spell. A gang on these could provide a very nasty challenge for a high-level party. At least then the PCs would have access to save-or-die spells that could go after the Will save, and might have True Seeing around.

So in conclusion, to fix this one:
* Make the DR 10/+1 (still nasty)
* Make the spell effects at caster level comparable to hit dice.
* Consider removing the at will invisibility

John
p.s. Whew, sorry Kit, nothin' personal. And I'm only halfway through my coffee this morning. Now for that I owe the thread at least one templated monster of my own. [grin]

 

[Kitsunekaboom]

John
p.s. Whew, sorry Kit, nothin' personal. And I'm only halfway through my coffee this morning. Now for that I owe the thread at least one templated monster of my own. [grin] [/B]

I actually DO think the Half-Titan is a bit strong, the DR is 10/+1 and that was my fault for leaving out. (This is what I get for doing things in the morning like that

My main qualm with this particular template is that almost every template I've seen, when it turns a creature into an outsider they get skills and feats as an outsider.

As for the book itself I would still give it a go, it was worth what I paid at least. (Got it at a half off sale )

The Dire Humanoid template is a hoot. The Aberration templates are medicore at best but the degenerated abberration isn't bad. The dragon section is nice and shiney, the elemental section is ok (gives you a template to make a creature an elemental, but that's been done)

The only real dissapointment came at the lack of an Outsider template that a celestial can use. They have a possession template, but it only works for evil outsiders. (I think I'm going to make it a general template and remove some of the bizzarre stuff the Possessed template does.)

I think the strongest bits of the book are the feats, some of these are rather interesting. (Like a dragon feat that allows it to use it's breath weapon sooner than 1d4 rounds later.)

PS: I also think the +2 CR is a bit low. Probably should be 3 or even 4 maybe. (Though remember, they may be invisible but they aren't silent or incorporeal, and this is a troll, not exactly quiet

 

[Greybar]

Okay, here goes.

If I remember the challenge was taking a Kobold to CR10. I'm cheating here by stipulating that these things come in a 9-pack.

Take a Kobold, add Half-Dragon (now Dragon type), add Fiendish and Axiomatic (now Outsider), then add Ghostly (now Undead).

Kobold, Ghostly Axiomatic Fiendish Half-Green Dragon (GAFHGDK- "Gafhgadk")
Small Undead (Incorporeal, Reptilian, Air)
Hit Dice: 1/2 d12 (hp 6)
Initiative: +1 (Dex)
Speed: 30 ft., fly 30 ft (perfect)
AC: 20 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural, +3 deflection)
Attacks: Bite +3 melee (see below)
Damage: Bite 1d4+2 (see below)
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Corrupting Touch, Horrific Appears, Corrupting Gaze, Breath Weapon
Special Qualities: Lowlight vision; Darkvision 60 ft.; light sensitivity; Cold, Fire, Electricity, Sonic resistance 5; Acid Immunity; SR 2
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con --, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16
Skills: Craft (trapmaking) +2, Hide +16, Listen +10, Move Silently +4, Search +10, Spot +10
Feats: Alertness
Climate/Terrain: Deep forest and underground
Organization: Always 9 of them
Challenge Rating: 4 "by the book" singly, 10 as a group
Treasure: Double Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class

Gafhgadks speak Draconic with voices that sound like yapping dogs with hissing overtones.

Gafhgadks were created by a powerful devil who desired shock troops to fight for law and evil. He made precisely 9 and trained them as a group. Unfortunately they encountered a celestial in a training run who slew them all with a single Holy Word. The creatures were so upset at having been killed so handily that their spirits could not rest, and they now continue to haunt the planes desperately trying to frustrate the works of chaos and good.

Characters: A Gafhgadk's favored class is Sorcerer.

Light Sensitivity (Ex): Gafhgadks suffer a -1 penalty to attack rolls in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

Smite Good (Su): Once per day the Gafhgadk can make a normal attack to deal + 1 additional damage against a good foe.

Smite Chaos (Su): Once per day the Gafhgadk can make a normal attack to deal + 1 additional damage against a chaotic foe.

Breath Weapon (1/day): Cone of acid gas 6d6 (DC 17)

Linked Minds (Ex): Gafhgadks within 300 feet of one another are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular dan

Manifestation (Su): As ethereal creatures, Gafhgadks cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When they manifest, they become visible but remain incorporeal. However, a manifested Gafhgadk can strike with its touch attack. A manifested Gafhgadk remains on the Ethereal Plane but can be attacked by opponents on both the Material and Ethereal planes. When a spellcasting Gafhgadk is on the Ethereal Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the Material Plane, but they work normally against ethereal targets. When a spellcasting Gafhgadk manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested Gafhgadk's touch spells don't work on material targets.

Corrupting Touch (Su): A Gafhgadk that hits a living target with its incorporeal attack deals 1d4 points of damage. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. Against material opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only.

Horrific Appearance (Su): Any living creature within 60 feet that views the Gafhgadk must succeed at a Fortitude save or immediately suffer 1d4 points of permanent Strength, 1d4 points of permanent Dexterity, and 1d4 points of permanent Constitution drain. A creature that successfully saves against this effect cannot be affected by the same Gafhgadk's horrific appearance for one day.

Corrupting Gaze (Su): The Gafhgadk can blast living beings with a glance, at a range of up to 30 feet. Creatures that meet the Gafhgadk's gaze must succeed at a Fortitude save or suffer 2d10 points of damage and 1d4 permanent Charisma drain.

Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it's difficult to destroy a Gafhgadk through simple combat: The "destroyed" spirit will often restore itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are often only temporary solutions. A Gafhgadk that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + ghost's level or HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a Gafhgadk for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. In the case of these nine, they just want to actually succeed in slaying a celestial... any celestial.

Turn Resistance (Ex): A Gafhgadk has +4 turn resistance.

Skills: Gafhgadks receive a +2 racial bonus to Craft (trapmaking), Profession (mining), and Search checks.


Commentary:
Okay now for the CR discussion. 1/6 for the kobold, +2 for the half-dragon, +2 for the ghost. I think the CR4 might not be too far off. Fourth level PCs may have trouble with any incorporeal undead, but the cleric might well blast it due to the low hit dice. However, the 6d6 acid blast could be very unhealthy.

Advancing the Gafhgadks:
Consider if the Gafhgadk was a 8th level sorcerer before it died. Put both of the attribute boosts in Charisma. It would have 8d12 for hit dice. The Smites would go to +8, and the resistances would go to 15 for elements (except acid). If it was a half-fiend instead of fiendish, then it would also gain spell-like abilities such as unholy blight. Fun!

 

[demiurge1138]

You've got style, Greybar. I don't think I've seen you in Homebrews before. Good work, and here's to seeing more of it!

Demiurge out.

 

[Krishnath]

Greybar: Interresting, but I'm afraid I will have to void the entry to the challenge because a creature cannot be fiendish and axiomatic at the same time. Just as little as a creature can be celestial and fiendish at the same time. Also the axiomatic and fiendish templates do not change the creatures type unless the base creature is an animal, in which case the type changes magical beast. Additionally, the creature only has a CR of +8. Nice try though.

 

[Greybar]

Krisnath,

Fiendish -> Evil Outer Planes
Axiomatic -> Lawful Outer Planes

Devils are Lawful Evil creatues of the Outer Planes.

I'll double-check the other items when I can get to my MotP, but I believe the only requirement states is "corporeal creature".

John

 

[Krishnath]

true, but it doesn't make sense. The templates are so called 'replacement' templates (as are the Elemental, and Pseudonatural templates). If a creature comes from for example Archeron, a LE plane, it can be either Axiomatic or Fiendish. Just as a creature from, say for example, Ysgaard, (a CG plane) is either Anarchic or Celestial, but not both.

It's like making adding the half-fiend template to a half-elf. It's legal within the rules, but it does not make sense.

Also, the creatures CR is still only 8.

 

[Greybar]

Well, let's just say we disagree then. If you're a fan of Sepulchrave's story hour, check out his "Exalted", "Perfect", etc templates. I see no reason why a creature could not be of polished law and unyielding evil. Would you not consider that you could have an Axiomatic Celestial as a servant of a truely lawful and good god?

[shrug] In the end, the templates are a tool for the GM. I could have created the Gafhgadk from scratch using no templates and avoided the whole argument, with the exact same results. The text over what a template can be applied to are to give the GM a guide. Consider the pyramid give forth in Savage Species... would you let that stop you from a good, fun, enjoyable idea?

John

 

[Krishnath]

It never have to be honest You should see my Tarrasque template stackmaster, it can literally not be killed, by anything! It's an incorporeal, spellcasting, undead, dragon, outsider... you get the idea

But, it was a nice one anyways, and don't worry to much about me hazing you, I tend to critisize stuff like that into the ground, even when I like it, and I do