D&D 3E/3.5 Knockdown feat 3.5e

[Legildur]

I'm a little confused about the Knockdown feat.

I remember that it first popped up in the 3.0e Sword and Fist splatbook.

I've seen the errata that clarified that the threshold damage had to be done in one blow, and that there was no free follow up attack as a result of the Improved Trip feat.

But now I see that it has been brought across to the 3.5e SRD under the Divine rules:

Knock-Down [General]
Prerequisites
Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.

Benefit
Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

I can't believe that they brought the feat across without the old errata... Very sloppy.

1. Anyway, my first question is, what exactly are the Divine Rules now in the 3.5e and where (which rulebook) did they come from?

Secondly, how does the feat operate? (I didn't see any real clarification in the errata or FAQ for Sword and Fist). Let's say you hit someone with a longsword and do the 10 points of damage:

1. Does the 'make a trip attack' mean that you need to still make the melee touch attack and then the opposed check? Or do you skip straight to the opposed checks?

2. Do you get the +4 bonus to the opposed Str check from the Improved Trip feat?

3. If your trip attempt fails, does your opponent get to make a counter-trip attempt?

Thanks

 

[ElectricDragon]

As far as I can tell, the Divine Rules in the SRD have NOT been updated to 3.5.

As an example, the Charm Domain lists Emotion as a 4th level spell. Emotion has been split up into several different spells of different levels and no longer exists in 3.5.

It seems that the Divine section was added: (1) without editing from 3.0 (2) without consulting the FAQ (3) without consulting Sage Advice and (4) without using common sense.
[sarcasm]
But it did get us (the players) all those nifty spells and feats from the splatbooks (3.0 versions) that everybody liked and wished were open content, and divine abilities, divine ranks, divine powers, and divine minions (from 3.0 Deities and Demigods)
[/sarcasm]
[rant]
Unfortunately, since nothing was updated, most of it is unusable without fixing in one way or another. Why give us the Prestige Domains as open content when the PrCs that use them are closed content? Why give us feats with such problems that they had to be addressed in an FAQ, but don't give us the fix? Why give us spells that still rely on 3.0 mechanics or even mis-edited things like the spell, Crown of Glory's Material Component: worth at least 200 gp or Blacklight's and Genesis' non-existent material components. How about the fact the the spell Hardening can be cast over and over again on the same object to increase its hardness to infinity?
[/rant]

Sorry about that; I just think some time should have been put into changing a new SRD section into 3.5 edition. At least the epic section received some editing...

Ciao
Dave

 

[Legildur]

I didn't realise the problem was much more extensive than just the Knockdown feat.

What rulebook(s) were the Divine Rules from?

 

[Jdvn1]

Deities & Demigods.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Knockdown was pretty pointless in 3.0 Since it didn't remove the possibility of being tripped if your enemy beats you on the trip check and it was FAQed so as not to stack with Improve Trip, the only thing it let you do was roll your trip attack after a normal attack (which you had to take without the +4 for attacking a prone foe). Almost any time you wanted to use the feat, it would be a better idea to just do a normal improved trip attack (since you get the +4 atk that way) and any time you wouldn't want to try the improved trip (because you're likely to lose the trip check) you wouldn't want to try Knockdown either.

To answer the questions:
1. Technically, a trip attack would require the touch attack too. Given the flavor of the feat, that's pretty silly, but it would have to say a trip check to skip straight to the trip check.

2. In 3.5, the +4 bonus from Improved Trip would apply. That's a bonus to all trip checks not just ones initiated in the normal way; as I read it, it would apply to the trip check you make against an enemy once they fail to trip you.

3. It doesn't say that this trip attack does not allow counter-trip. It's just a normal trip attack so it does allow the counter-trip.

Adapting it properly to 3.5 would have to solve the problems the feat had in 3.0 while accounting for the fact that tripping is already far more effective in 3.5 (with abilities like powerful build, the enlarge person spell, the +4 for Improved Trip, the ability to drop a trip weapon after you lose the trip check rather than having to decide whether or not to risk it before rolling, and, most importantly, the AoO for standing up). One would also have to resolve the differences in the amount of damage per hit--for normal characters, it's easier to deal 15 dmg/hit in 3.5 than 3.0

I'd recommend something like one of the following:

A. Every time you deal 20 or more points of damage to a creature with a melee attack, you may make an immediate trip check at -4. If this check fails, the creature may not trip you in return and, if it succeeds, you do not gain the free attack from Improved Trip.

or

B. As a special full round attack action, you may make a single melee attack. If your attack hits and deals 20 or more points of damage, you may make an immediate trip check against the creature. If successful, you may make a follow-up attack with Improved Trip as normal.

The first suggestion makes the trip attack a bonus that will sometimes succeed but may be attempted on full attack. The second makes it an interesting option but one that will not always be used since it requires a full round action and the sacrifice of iterative or haste attacks. In either case, they allow a character to trip foes who would not normally be a good target for a trip attempt because they are likely to win the check.

 

[Voadam]

The divine section did give us open content hold the line which I like a lot.

 

[Devilkiller]

I remember a bunch of discussions of the Knockdown feat back in 3e. As I recall, the Sage advice was that you did not have to make a touch attack and could not be counter tripped. I also saw a similar feat for ranged weapons once which didn't allow counter trips for obvious reasons. Now, lots of folks (perhaps most folks?) seem to disagree with the Sage on principle, but I was with him on this one.

In practice though, anybody with Str 15+ is going to have a pretty easy time doing 10+ damage on average. This can lead to an absolutely annoying number of opposed rolls, especially if the character with Knockdown is a monk or has TWF. The feat can also become a bit overpowering since eventually the person getting hit will make a bad roll and fall over. That was a nuisance in 3e but can mean real trouble in 3.5.

Even played by the RAW the feat is still very useful, especially for somebody with the Prone Fighting feat. You just beat on somebody and force opposed trip checks until he falls.

 

[Ferret]

I say it would be changed to a threat (not confirmed). But thats a house rules.....

 

[Legildur]

In practice though, anybody with Str 15+ is going to have a pretty easy time doing 10+ damage on average. This can lead to an absolutely annoying number of opposed rolls, especially if the character with Knockdown is a monk or has TWF.

Well, I'm considering it for a longsword wielding fighter with the Whirlwind Attack feat, so you work out how 'annoying' it might become.

But thanks for the recall about the Sage advice. I might try and track it down.

But I still can't believe that they didn't at least include already published errata for the OGC.