Knockdown feat

[shilsen]

Has the Knockdown feat from 3.0 (it came out in Sword and Fist, I think) been updated to 3.5? One of my players found it in the 3.5 SRD, so I assume it has, but we're not sure which book it came out in.

Thanks.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Huh. To the best of my knowledge, it hadn't been redone for 3.5, but I could have just missed it.

I'm not entirely sure it should be redone for 3.5. I've played a character with it, back in 3.0, and unless they've changed the way it works, I'm not sure it's not pretty severely broken.

 

[boolean]

I'm not entirely sure it should be redone for 3.5. I've played a character with it, back in 3.0, and unless they've changed the way it works, I'm not sure it's not pretty severely broken.

With or without the errata?

p. 7, Knockdown Insert to end of Benefit:

Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats. Insert may into “you may make a trip attack as a free action.” After “whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee” insert: with a single attack

So they closed the "hit them, make a free trip, make a free attack" loophole.

Now it's basically Improved Trip in reverse order; an attack followed by a free trip if successful, instead of a trip followed by a free attack.

 

[Mouseferatu]

With or without the errata?



So they closed the "hit them, make a free trip, make a free attack" loophole.

Now it's basically Improved Trip in reverse order; an attack followed by a free trip if successful, instead of a trip followed by a free attack.

Even with the errata. I never tried to use the "free attack after trip" trick anyway.

The problem is, it's far too easy to design a character who is guaranteed to be doing at least 10 points of damage on every attack. All it requires is a high strength, a greatsword, and a tiny bit of magic or an extra feat. Making a free trip attack every time you hit is, frankly, over-powered IMO. And again, I'm speaking from experience as someone who played such a character.

 

[shilsen]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I agree with Mouseferatu that it's too strong as written, since, as he said, it's essentially a trip attack every time you hit. If a player did want it, I'd probably restrict it to a free trip once per round or some such.

 

[IcyCool]

The problem is, it's far too easy to design a character who is guaranteed to be doing at least 10 points of damage on every attack. All it requires is a high strength, a greatsword, and a tiny bit of magic or an extra feat. Making a free trip attack every time you hit is, frankly, over-powered IMO. And again, I'm speaking from experience as someone who played such a character.

So do you nerf the Druid's Wolf Animal Companion's Trip ability? After all, it's a free trip attempt every time it hits.

 

[Mouseferatu]

So do you nerf the Druid's Wolf Animal Companion's Trip ability? After all, it's a free trip attempt every time it hits.

There's a difference between a creature with an ability built-in, and the sort of feature that's an appropriate level of power for a feat.

A free trip attack with every hit is, IMO, too much for a feat. Additionally, after only a few levels, a character with Knockdown is going to be hitting a lot more often than the druid's wolf companion.

 

[Iku Rex]

Making a free trip attack every time you hit is, frankly, over-powered IMO.

Why weren't you forced to drop your weapon all the time if you tried all these trip attacks? (I vaguely remember some wacky Sage ruling saying that you can't be counter-tripped - were you using that rule perhaps?)

 

[Mouseferatu]

Why weren't you forced to drop your weapon all the time if you tried all these trip attacks? (I vaguely remember some wacky Sage ruling saying that you can't be counter-tripped - were you using that rule perhaps?)

As written/described/clarified by the Sage, the "free trip attack" was actually the result of the impact of the swing. Hence, you didn't have to drop your weapon, or use a trip-appropriate weapon, and hence, no counter-trip.

That's why it was called "Knockdown." Now, if someone wanted to create a fit that granted a free normal trip attack with each attack, that might be possible to balance, though I'm not sure I can see the logistics behind it.

 

[Taloras]

I played a halberdier fighter with this feat.....we just played it as everytime i did 10+ damage, opposed strength check for trip. No extra attacks. It just put them prone for the rest of the round. When said fighter is doing 1d10+17 pts of damage is when it gets nasty, because every time i hit there was a strength check(+4 for Improved Trip for me). It saved the party(especially said fighter) on more than one ocassion.