knocking people out

[jester47]

In the game THIEF, you play a thief who can creep up behind people and knock them out...


Looking at DnD, it does not seem to have a mechanic to allow this... If you are a rogue, and can move silently you can get a shot in with you sap on a sneak attack when he's flat footed. This works at lower levels, but as you go up in levels, the guard's HP gets higher than what the rogue can deliver in a sneak attack.

I have found two ways to handle this-

if a target is completely unaware of you (you are right behind him and hes sitting there whistleing a tune) he counts as a helpless character for the duration of your first attack, and you can pull a coup-de-grace on him for lethal or subdual.

The other is with a "knockout" house rule built around a touch attack, a flatfooted target and a Fort save vs total damage delivered (lethal or not).

What do people here think about these options?

Also how would you do knockouts in a VP/WP system?

Aaron.

 

[GodPhoenix]

Looking at DnD, it does not seem to have a mechanic to allow this...

I think there is a mechanic to allow this...it's called having -1 through -9 hitpoints

Seriously though, knocking someone out is rendering them unconcious...and there are lots of things that make creatures go unconcious. Example - Drow "knockout" poison which causes victims to go unconcious.

From the SRD: "Drow usually coat their arrows with a potent venom. Poison (Ex): An opponent hit by a drow’s poisoned weapon must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or fall unconscious. After 1 minute, the subject must succeed on another DC 13 Fortitude save or remain unconscious for 2d4 hours. A typical drow carries 1d4–1 doses of drow knockout poison."

Creating a one hit knockout attack would be difficult to balance...it's nearly as powerful as a save-or-die spell.

if a target is completely unaware of you (you are right behind him and hes sitting there whistleing a tune) he counts as a helpless character for the duration of your first attack, and you can pull a coup-de-grace on him for lethal or subdual

unaware and helpless have very different meanings according to the core rules of the SRD...although unaware opponents can be sneak-attacked for whompass damage (subdual if you like)

 

[jester47]

I guess a guard should not be a peer to a player character anyways... I mean they ARE supposed to be the fodder. but how do you fix this with the VP/WP system... Its an easy thing with a ArmorDR/conversion/injury system, but doing a knocking someone out in VP/WP seems really rather difficult...

Aaron.

 

[hong]

There's absolutely no reason you can't handle knockouts in VP/WP just like normal attacks. If you have spare VP left, then when someone tries to hit you over the head with a sap, you manage to dodge the blow. It's exactly the same as if you have VP left, and someone tries to hit you with an axe -- you manage to dodge the axe. The difference would be in what happens when your VP are reduced to 0. You can cook up a mechanic so that if you're at 0 VP and get hit by a sap, you have to make a save or be knocked out, or something.

So, how do you reduce someone to 0 VP when you have a sap? Why, in exactly the same way you do it when you have an axe: you just keep trying to hit them. All the usual terms and conditions apply.

 

[Darklone]

Yeah. Knocking someone out from behind in D&D often translates to a surprise round and at least one full attack action. I don't like it, but any houserule would screw the game.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Well its not exactly the same thing... but a sneaking rogue against a lone guard can have many attacks if he has Expert Tactician (one of the best feats for rogues). 4 attacks if he wins initiative:

Surprise Round Attack + Expert Tactician
1st Round Attack + Expert Tactician (flat footed still)

With a sap and good sneak attack that can be a lot of damage. Some muscle (strength) wouldn't hurt either. Still its pretty messy compared to the one hit one knockout.

 

[Darklone]

I had a rogue/bard/more multiclass crime with sneak attack and still it was a big pain somewhere to knock out a single guard with a single attack.

 

[Kemrain]

d20 Star Wars, using a Vitality and Wounds system, has stun weapons, which deal no (or low) vitality damage and force the recipient to roll a fort save (Dc anywhere from 12 to 20 or nore, dependant on the weapon,) or fall unconscious.

I play in a Grim and Gritty game, and my GM allows us to make an attack with a subdual weapon against a flatfooted target, at a -6 penalty, allowing a Fort save dc 10+damage to keep from being KO'd. It comes up very rarely, and it's saved my ass a few times.

It always bothered me that the best way to simulate a crack on the back fo the head with a blackjack was a suprise round and a full attack after that.

- Kemrain the Thief-Fanatic.

 

[Darklone]

It always bothered me that the best way to simulate a crack on the back fo the head with a blackjack was a suprise round and a full attack after that.

- Kemrain the Thief-Fanatic.

Even with the good old Expert Tactician, you had more than one full attack action and the surprise round, but what if that wasn't enough either? Ah well... what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[jgsugden]

D&D is designed specifically to *avoid* this type of situation. Being able to render a foe helpless in one blow is too strong an ability unless magic is used or you're facing a dramatically weaker foe.

How would you feel, as a player, if your character was walking to the local tavern, the DM suddenly rolled some dice and then announced: "Billy, you were ambushed by thieves. Even though you have a lot of hit points, one of them knocked you unconcious with X. Then they slit your throat with a CdG. Sorry. Here are four six sided dice. Go make a new character."

Hit points are used to keep PCs going.

If you really don't like this idea and would prefer a more deadly game, check out the VP/WP system in UA - it can be altered to do what you want by having VP, WP and TWP (temporary wound points) that can be used to subdue/knock unconcious.