Know-skills rant -- but also a question

[Kichwas]

How many know something of nature? Answer is, most if not all, and they really get nothing of knowledge from it.

Profession: Farmer.
Profession: Fur Trapper
Profession: Truffle Hunter
Craft: Leatherworking
Craft or Profession: Herbalism
and so on...

That will give them the -kind- of knowledge they would know, which is different from Knowledge: Nature.

They would know things related to what they do in life, but lack a fuller understanding that comes with study of the actual topic.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Profession: Farmer.
Profession: Fur Trapper
Profession: Truffle Hunter
Craft: Leatherworking
Craft or Profession: Herbalism
and so on...

That will give them the -kind- of knowledge they would know, which is different from Knowledge: Nature.

They would know things related to what they do in life, but lack a fuller understanding that comes with study of the actual topic.

I see no issue with that except that most people learn from the experainces of life, and or observations, not in a school or scientific study. That said I think the farmer would have observed enough nature to qual for at least a level one...

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Norfleet, oh I pretty much agree with everything you said their...

one other point, say said person watch something done, aka torching a troll, he hasn't level up but later that adventure they have more trolls to fight:

A) he torches them as he has learned something new.
B) he torches them as he mimics the actions of the other.
c) Runs in Terror cause he hasn't leveled up and used any skill points for knowledge.

I think this is pretty much an extreme but it does show the flaw in the knowledge skills.


Maybe knowledge should be seperate from skills. Say you get so many points per level based upon your INT. This wouldn't hinder fighters with cross class and wizards and that lot should still be smarter than your typical warrior class and their for have more of a knowledge base.

 

[jasamcarl]

Ok, did anyone note that knowledge skills only pertain to uncommon knowledge. Peasents know common stuff about nature, i.e. that which pertains to farming is for them common. This makes the rp utility of knowledge skills passive, as the DM defines what is common and what is not, but PCs shouldn't be considered morons unless the DM is anal enough lump everything under them, which isn't even how the 'rules' work as written. 3.5 was smart enough to include synergy bonuses as well as rough guidlines as to how to determine whether or not a pc knows a monster's special abilities; make the check, you can see its statblock. This means that these skills have some minor active utility.

 

[Steverooo]

And Another Thing...

Also, the Ranger's Favored Enemies bonus (which I dislike, BtW) doesn't add to the appropriate Knowledge skill... A Ranger with FE: Dragons can't add the FE bonus to Knowledge (Arcana), even if they had any (which they likely don't). Thus, while they can spot or hear it, track it, sense its motives and bluff it, and even kill it better, they cannot know its special defenses or weaknesses?

Hmmm!

I'm with Norfleet... Except that, taking Knowledge doesn't just mean giving up ONE skill, it usually means giving up SEVERAL others. For each skill you get (whatever it is), you can't get four or five others.

Another possible solution would be to take the various "Non-Adventuring" skills, and group them all together. (To me, this means Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession; skills with flavor, but little game effect), and then give the same skill points for use with those skills, ONLY, as for use with the "Adventuring" skills.

So you have a Ranger who can play the harp, and a Rogue with Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), a Wizard with Profession (Boater) or (Sailor). So what?

In some ways, I think the Profession skills, in general, are a bad idea. They provide limits, not options. To say that a Fighter cannot get a job as a Bodyguard because Fighters don't get the Profession skill, it can't be used untrained, and he therefore has no Profession (Bodyguard) is just plain silly. Who else is going to do it?

Likewise, why can't anyone with the Handle Animals skill work as a Profession (Driver)? They OUGHT to be able to. To say that they can't, because Profession can't be used untrained, is, again, silly.

In the same vein, Rangers and Halflings can't cook? Halflings LOVE food, and are nomadic (in 3.x). Rangers and Barbarians had BETTER know how to cook!

Then again, I favor an overall increase in skill points, and giving the PCs the skills they need to "do their jobs", anyway... The simple fact that you can have a spellslinger of any class with NO Spellcraft just knocks me out!

 

[Etan Moonstar]

It's my opinion that WotC got Craft and Profession backwards as far as which can be used untrained and which is trained-only. It only makes sense that you can try to row a boat, cook, farm, fish, hunt, cut down trees, or muck stables without specialized training; otoh, it makes no sense that you can try to forge a suit of armor or a weapon, build a ship, weave a tapestry, or cut a diamond with no previous training. There's a reason why, even today, "unskilled labor" tends to take jobs in the service sector while skilled craftsmen have often gone through the apprenticeship/journeyman/master sequence.

 

[Henry]

It's my opinion that WotC got Craft and Profession backwards as far as which can be used untrained and which is trained-only.

I am of the opinion they should have treated it same as in d20 Modern. Make Profession a single skill you roll when you want to make money at something, and convert all of the professions listed there to Knowledge or Craft Skills.

I would also remove the "trained only" restriction, because Knowledge is often gained in the most unusual of places, and just make the commonality of a piece of information what its DC is based on.


But also, a lot of people underestimate the importance of one rank. One rank of a skill covers all basic training, and covers everything a person would need to know to make a basic living off of said craft or knowledge.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

In some ways, I think the Profession skills, in general, are a bad idea. They provide limits, not options. To say that a Fighter cannot get a job as a Bodyguard because Fighters don't get the Profession skill, it can't be used untrained, and he therefore has no Profession (Bodyguard) is just plain silly. Who else is going to do it?

Likewise, why can't anyone with the Handle Animals skill work as a Profession (Driver)? They OUGHT to be able to. To say that they can't, because Profession can't be used untrained, is, again, silly.

Sure they can. They're just not as good at it as those who are trained.

From the SRD on Profession...

"Untrained: Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day."

So, a fighter without ranks in Profession (Bodyguard) isn't going to be as *good* of a bodyguard as someone with the ranks, and isn't going to get as much money. He's not going to know the ins and outs of being a bodyguard, probably not much more than "keep client from getting hurt." And a trained bodyguard *should* make more money than an untrained one.

 

[Norfleet]

The simple fact that you can have a spellslinger of any class with NO Spellcraft just knocks me out!

That's like a computer programmer who was never taught any programming languages and somehow has managed not to learn any from simple exposure despite being a programmer. It doesn't really make any sense.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm planning on playing an Akashic (Arcana Unearthed, for those not familiar with this class) with ranks in several knowledge skills.

I think the biggest problem with Knowledge skills is the total lack of guidelines as to what you can do with them. Just how much information can you come up with at various DCs? Diplomacy and Intinimate tell you what happens when you make various checks, for example. Even Bardic Knowledge checks tell you a certain level of knowledge gained from the check. Why are there no DC guidelines for the Knowledge skill checks?