D&D 5E Knowing of a threat without noticing it

[Rya.Reisender]

Hmm interesting.

I read "Noticing a threat" as two requirements:
- You need to notice something
- That something is a threat

So noticing an ally or knowing of a threat both only meet one of the two requirments -> Surprise.

But of course you could see threat not just as a single person but actually an event. And the friend approaching plus knowing he is with enemies, could create a "area blob with some enemies in it" which itself could be consider a threat that is noticed.

 

[jasper]

Okay, another tricky one:

The PCs know that enemies are coming and are ready to attack them the moment they appear. However, the enemies have the plan to ambush the PCs and they all succeed their stealth roll. Are the PCs surprised or does knowing that enemies are approaching already count as noticing a threat?

jasper at start of game, "randy the barbarian knows people are out to get him. I am immune to surprise"
Dm, "ok"
no. no. no. This is where the DICE OVER RULE ROLEPLAY. Unless they have taken measures to prevent they are surprise. Even if they do take prevention tactics, I would roll at disadvantage on stealth. And if the dice say the bad guys succeed. Deal with it. Bad dice roll against the players happen.

 

[Maxperson]

Hmm interesting.

I read "Noticing a threat" as two requirements:
- You need to notice something
- That something is a threat

So noticing an ally or knowing of a threat both only meet one of the two requirments -> Surprise.

But of course you could see threat not just as a single person but actually an event. And the friend approaching plus knowing he is with enemies, could create a "area blob with some enemies in it" which itself could be consider a threat that is noticed.

Surprise requires that the PCs try to notice each creature in the opposing side, and have to fail to notice all of them in order to be surprised. The infiltrated PC is part of the opposing side until he shows that side that he's not a part of it.

 

[sim-h]

In order to simulate this I would give the enemies disadvantage on the stealth checks, or boost passive perception +5 (equivalent to advantage) for the PCs. If the enemies still 'win', then the PCs are surprised despite their foresight.

 

[Maxperson]

In order to simulate this I would give the enemies disadvantage on the stealth checks, or boost passive perception +5 (equivalent to advantage) for the PCs. If the enemies still 'win', then the PCs are surprised despite their foresight.

The PC that is with the enemy group has spoiled it for the enemies, though. They know he is with them, and where he is, so no surprise can happen by both the rules and common sense.

 

[Krachek]

Okay, another tricky one:

The PCs know that enemies are coming and are ready to attack them the moment they appear. However, the enemies have the plan to ambush the PCs and they all succeed their stealth roll. Are the PCs surprised or does knowing that enemies are approaching already count as noticing a threat?

I would allow a surprise if the enemies appears in an unpredictable way. ex.: Hidden sewer.

 

[Imaculata]

I would allow a surprise if the enemies appears in an unpredictable way. ex.: Hidden sewer.

This is what I was kind of thinking of. Even if the players are ready for an ambush, with their weapons drawn, and facing the door of a room... if the attack comes from a totally unexpected angle, they would still be surprised. They could be in a forest, watching every bush, and listening for every sound... and then all of a sudden the enemies drop down from the tree trops. They are surprised.

 

[Maxperson]

Which is great in theory, but in this case it's from a totally expected angle since the infiltrated PC is detected.

 

[iserith]

"The DM determines who might be surprised." In this case, given the specific context, I would say the PCs cannot be surprised as they are expecting an attack as part of their setup of the enemy. There would be no reason for Team Monster to roll Dexterity (Stealth) checks. They simply fail to surprise the PCs, no roll.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

"The DM determines who might be surprised." In this case, given the specific context, I would say the PCs cannot be surprised as they are expecting an attack as part of their setup of the enemy. There would be no reason for Team Monster to roll Dexterity (Stealth) checks. They simply fail to surprise the PCs, no roll.

Except, they can still hide in the darkness.