Knowledge Checks (monster info)

[Mystery Man]

From the PHB:

"In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special owers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information."

How do you handle this? Personally I hate giving out info that isn't really earned in some way. I would rather have the player ask a specific question or something. Looking for suggestions on how best to handle this.

Thanks

 

[BSF]

It could be argued that the information has been earned by the PC taking ranks in a Knowledge skill as opposed to something like Spot, Listen, Search, Climb, etc.

I love Knowledge skills! Of course, I have a homebrew world. Knowledge skills represent a way to give out snippets about the world itself. However, I think you are asking more about the mechanic of learning about a monster, right?

OK, think about a situation where you have the PC's fighting a Troll. The players have played for several years and know what hurts a troll. But, for whatever reason, their characters have never had a chance to personally fight a troll.

It can be an interesting exercise in RP to try to concoct a reason why the fighter drops his sword and pulls out a torch and oil, but not everybody derives the same enjoyment out of that. The Knowledge skill mechanic gives you the chance to apply a little metagame knowledge and to move along in the game. I use it to toss out little hints on solutions to problems I did not intend to be problems. Or, to provide a little more background information.

"You have heard stories about ancient kings that sometimes do not rest in their tombs. Either through their evil deeds, or through an evil that corrupts their bodies after death, they sometimes arise as creatures of undeath. Their touch can drain the very essence of your life away and those that they slay will arise from the dead under their control.

You are pretty sure that there was once a warlord in this region. He was the leader of the Wolf Clans and he held the region for a time. He wielded a sword named Althfang, which was rumored to possess any number of powers, and he eventually came to be called by the same name. He fell in battle when Althfang was sundered from his grip. Having built his power by the sword, he lost that power when the sword was destroyed. He was said to have been buried in a tomb, but nobody has ever found Althfang."

That is a small snippet of information that my players picked up when they encountered a wight. They did manage to find the shards of Althfang as well. The party debated keeping the shards in the hopes of one day repairing the sword, but they ended up selling the shards to a collector for a bunch of emeralds.

 

[shilsen]

I handle it exactly as written. If the PC has the ranks in it and made the DC, in my estimation he "really earned" it.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Oh dear, if skill points are spent on the relative Knowledge skill I most certainly don'y try and debunk the PC's ability in this area (i.e. Knowledge). Afterall, such knowledge skills are hard to come by as class skills (mostly reserved for the Wizard-only). I use the PHB mechanic as it is, anything else is unfortunately stealing an ability away that the PC has every right to possess.

Keep in mind that even though a successful roll is made usually only 1-2 things are revealed about said creature, at your discretion (or rolled randomly). These of course are usually taken from anything like 6-12 monster specific bits of knowledge, all of them potentially useful in an encounter. Though I wouldn't go about explaining the mating habits of trolls to the PC, as I said the mechanic is there to be useful. The great part about using it as a DM is the notable bits of info that are left unsaid heh:

"You know that Trolls regenerate and hate acid." For example, they still don't know that fire is necessarily helpul in this encounter but they aren't at a total loss when dealing with said creature. Or how about:

"You've heard that Trolls have long groping claws that can tear a man in half and hold an abhorrance to fire." This describes their reach and rend ability and also that they are hurt by fire, but not about their regenrative ability. These are just two minor examples of how the mechanic works in game play. If they happen to roll unusually high then they are unsually knowledgeable of the creature, so what? Good on them for spending those skill points and getting a lucky roll, which the player's will undoubtably cheer about. Let them cheer aye. They can always get ripped to pieces by the next monster about the bend later.

 

[Mystery Man]

Oh dear, if skill points are spent on the relative Knowledge skill I most certainly don'y try and debunk the PC's ability in this area (i.e. Knowledge). Afterall, such knowledge skills are hard to come by as class skills (mostly reserved for the Wizard-only). I use the PHB mechanic as it is, anything else is unfortunately stealing an ability away that the PC has every right to possess.

I'm torn on this one. I too dislike stealing or negating a PC ability. I don't know which sets my teeth on edge more, that or that fact that I think he's exploiting the rules and pumping skill points just for that purpose. IN THIS INSTANCE ONLY, I am going to turn up the DC to 15 +HD I think. There are at least 4 different monster manuals that I use, there is just no way any character running around can possibly know that much IMO.

"You know that Trolls regenerate and hate acid." For example, they still don't know that fire is necessarily helpul in this encounter but they aren't at a total loss when dealing with said creature. Or how about_:

That's the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Let me give you an example of how he goes about this. First he wants to know if its a abberation, magical beast or whatever so that he can roll the correct knowledge check. I think that that should be his first roll. Roll a knowledge check and if its the right one then you can roll to see if you know anything about it. Make sense?

 

[Droid101]

Let me give you an example of how he goes about this. First he wants to know if its a abberation, magical beast or whatever so that he can roll the correct knowledge check. I think that that should be his first roll. Roll a knowledge check and if its the right one then you can roll to see if you know anything about it. Make sense?

No, I think he had it when he decided the information to give out. The knowledge skill represents studies and maybe just heresay and gossip the character has picked up over the ages. When he runs into a creature, he thinks a moment to see if he picked up anything about it in the past. (Knowledge check). If the check succeeds, and by however much, is what he knew all along. He shouldn't get to pick what it is he learned in the past.

Of course, this is just my humble opinion.

 

[Liquidsabre]

I'm torn on this one. I too dislike stealing or negating a PC ability. I don't know which sets my teeth on edge more, that or that fact that I think he's exploiting the rules and pumping skill points just for that purpose.

Ah, gotcha. A wizard I assume this guy is playing, so he spends all his skill points in Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (Planes)? Even at Int 18 and human this guy only gets 7 skil points/level. How do his ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft compare to his knowledge skill ranks? No cross-class ranks in spot?

IN THIS INSTANCE ONLY, I am going to turn up the DC to 15 +HD I think. There are at least 4 different monster manuals that I use, there is just no way any character running around can possibly know that much IMO.

It sounds like this player may impedeing some of the fun in the game. Is the player experienced and just using the Knowledge skills as an excuse to use his own personal knowledge in-game? Perhaps some more insight into how this player is taking advantage of this mechanic would help.

Let me give you an example of how he goes about this. First he wants to know if its a abberation, magical beast or whatever so that he can roll the correct knowledge check.

No dice, tell him to make the specific Knowledge roll or better yet, roll for him (as some search checks and spot checks are done sometimes behind the DM screen) instead. You know what knowledge skill to roll and if it fails he won't have an idea of whetehr the creature is an aberration, magical beast, or what-not. Beware however, that if you fudge the dice and/or the player doesn't trust you, this will likely result in some argument on the players part, adn if you're fudging the dice often, rightly so.

I think that that should be his first roll. Roll a knowledge check and if its the right one then you can roll to see if you know anything about it. Make sense?

Sure, but perhaps overly harsh. I'd love to hear some specific examples about how this guy is trying weedle all the knowledge he can about monsters and beasts. Do you vary the CRs at all? Sometimes he may know what it is they are facing but it won't do the group much good as the creature is beyond them. NPCs don't have knowledge checks regarding them, so perhaps through some of those at them as well. Monsters aren't the end all and be all of creation. Unless this guy also has Knowledge (Religion) ranks, try throwing some undead at them if this guy's knowledge is disruptive to you. Really, if we could hear more about this fellows behavior we might be able to give soem more advice on the matter.

Goodluck!

 

[BSF]

OK, it sounds like you are specifically having a problem with a player that seems to be trying to annoy you with the skill. Heh - First piece of advice is put the die down and take a deep breath. (No, I don't really think you are that peeved.)

But seriously, he is trying to spend points in the skills and then make use of them. Even with four monster books, I would argue that it is possible a PC might have a Savant type knowledge of everything out there. Heck, how many gamers have stuff from the MM near memorized? Or any other rules mechanics? My point is that the PC is sinking the points in the skills, so they should be useful. However, there may be times when the DC is higher than normal. Commentary below

Let me give you an example of how he goes about this. First he wants to know if its a abberation, magical beast or whatever so that he can roll the correct knowledge check. I think that that should be his first roll. Roll a knowledge check and if its the right one then you can roll to see if you know anything about it. Make sense?

*nod* OK, try a different tactic. You have the PC's skills right? Make yourself a little cheat sheet of what skill bonuses he has, with the type of creatures that it applies to. When the PC's encounter something odd, and the Player asks what kind of creature it is, just have him roll a D20. Then, you can look at your cheat sheet, modify it by the appropriate skill (if any) and tell the Player what information the PC knows.

The Player may object since he doesn't know what skill you applied. Rationale is that the PC doesn't know what skill to apply, he just knows if he recognizes it. This will cut the metagame level of the Player figuring out how many HD the creature has and what kind of creature it is, based on the question and the roll.

Commentary on setting DC's - OK, I do not always assign the DC as stated in the book. Nor do you have to. Remember, the DC's for the Knowledge skills should be dependent on your gameworld, not what is in all the possible monster books.

If you decide that Bullettes and Owlbears are a recent invention of a mad wizard, then there is no amount of knowledge skill that will apply. Even if the monsters were in the books, they are a recent addition to the game world.

If you decide that a certain creature only exists at a specific oasis in a remote desert, then the DC for having any information for the creature will be higher than normal.

This is not nerfing the PC skill. It is helping to make your world a little more consistent. Just don't use these tactics every time.

 

[Tyrol]

Admittedly this would be a houserule, but here's a way to curb possible abuse:
Give knowledge checks a chance to provide misinformation. Afterall, not everything written in a book or heard through gossip is true Perhaps a % die roll (or even just a d20); anywhere in the range of 1-15% sounds reasonable (and DMs could alter the % as fitting for their campaign, seeing as how the validity of printed and spoken sources would vary by campaign).

Obviously, this roll would need to be done secretly by the DM. And the misinformation provided on a bad roll shouldn't be *too* harsh on the PCs, especially if they are unaware that there is a chance of misinformation. I'd recommend making sure they are aware of this misinformation chance beforehand, possibly discussing its implementation, etc.

Example: PCs encounter a Troll for the first time in any of their character's life. (For the sake of this example, let's assume none of the actual players have any metagame knowledge of trolls either.) The entire party wants to perform knowledge checks to determine just what exactly they are up against. Everyone tries, and all but Brad the PC know NOTHING (either they don't have the appropriate knowledge or they roll too poorly). Brad happens to have 5 ranks in Knowledge(Nature), and he rolls pretty good on his knowledge check, a total of 21. This should be enough to provide TWO useful bits of information to Brad the PC, that his character picked up somewhere.(based on the 10 + HD DC, in this case 16) You roll a d% for both bits of information, and one of happens to be a 3 (out of 100), low enough in your campaign to mean that one bit of information comes from an untrue source. For the reliable bit, you say that Brad the PC recognizes this as a Troll, and that he has heard they have astounding regenerative properties. For the misinformation, Brad has heard that ice/cold prevents a troll's regeneration. The party fells the troll and tries to freeze the troll parts on the ground, but the troll just keeps regenerating, reviving to attack them again. The PCs should realize that the knowledge Brad the PC had was inaccurate, and if they don't, the DM should try and make it clear to them, IMO. Maybe Brad the PC suddenly thinks "Oh wait, it wasn't ice/cold that kills them, it was FIRE!"

*shrug*
Just a possibility that might help,

Tyrol

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm torn on this one. I too dislike stealing or negating a PC ability. I don't know which sets my teeth on edge more, that or that fact that I think he's exploiting the rules and pumping skill points just for that purpose. IN THIS INSTANCE ONLY, I am going to turn up the DC to 15 +HD I think. There are at least 4 different monster manuals that I use, there is just no way any character running around can possibly know that much IMO.

Unlike, say, yourself, who just plays this game for fun, not as your entire life.

Hmm.

Frankly, if I can memorise most of the MM after only a couple of readings, I think someone with a +19 (or whatever) bonus should have a fair chance to know whatever monster it is that he's just met, don't you think?

Let me give you an example of how he goes about this. First he wants to know if its a abberation, magical beast or whatever so that he can roll the correct knowledge check. I think that that should be his first roll. Roll a knowledge check and if its the right one then you can roll to see if you know anything about it. Make sense?

Nope, none whatsoever.

Make him roll first. Generally all his knowledge checks will be around about the same number. If he really has been focussing on this stuff, he'll usually succeed at the roll, at least enough to know the name of the creature (which is NOT counted as a fact about it) and it's type (which may or may not count as a fact - if the creature's type and subtype give it unusual immunities or powers, such as a construct or plant, then that counts as one of the facts from the power. Otherwise it shouldn't. If it counts as a fact, weigh it against other abilities...). Next up, I'd give the creatures most dangerous attack, and the creatures most effective defense - including the cure or counter to either one. Additionally, I'd hand out the more immediately threatening of the two first.

ie - for a nightwing:

For a successful dc 27 knowlege check,
"It's a nightwing"
"It's an otherwordly undead" (this is important - undead have a wide range of abilities and vulnerabilities which really, really matter)

For dc 32
"It drains magic from items by touching them with it's evil aura" - this tells the party that their gear is in trouble from touching this thing, and that the problem is an evil effect (making dispel evil a quite obvious solution)

For dc 37
"It is vulnerable to magical silver weapons"

And so on and so forth
Depending on the character in question, I might have handed out resistance to magic a bit earlier in the sequence.

Also - never hand out info which is immediately obvious as part of the knowledge check. For instance requireing a dc 21 knowledge check before telling someone that a giant is strong, has low ref saves and has lots of hitpoints is just being cruel. This information is at the 'obvious level' - you can see that this is a big, tough, not particularly dextrous humanoid. Telling them that his will saves are low is probably worthy of the check, as is telling them that he can throw boulders as far as a man fires an arrow...