Knowledge Checks (monster info)

[Mystery Man]

I think 10 + CR is a much better mechanic than 10 + HD. CR is more closely related to rarity than HD are.

When I DM I use 10 + CR. And if the PC gets it, then he gets most of the relevant information about the monster.

I disagree only for the fact that at times the HD is higher than the CR thus making the challenge rating higher resulting in a harder skill check.

 

[Mulkhoran]

I think my mistake is giving him the monster type so he knows what skill check to roll. From now on I'm going to have him give it his best guess to start and if he's wrong that's it.

Ok, this is quite unreasonable. Different Knowledge checks give knowledge of different creature types. That's how it's designed. If he has +15 Knowledge(Arcana) - Constructs/Dragons/Magical Beasts, and +5 Knowledge(Dungeoneering) - Aberrations/Oozes, then he has a better chance to ID a Golem than a Beholder. That's just how the rules are designed. The skill of the certain type will tell him what type the thing in front of him is.

Certainly, you shouldn't be telling him up front what it's type is, but his better skill at ID-ing creature type "X" *should* come in to play when encountering creature "X". This works better if the check is rolled against the appropriate skill without him knowing which skill, either by him or you. Sure it's a little more management, but at least it's fair.

You say *he's* not a problem player. So if it's a problem with the rules, adjust the *rules* (Like upping the DC like people have said), don't retaliate against the player. Thanks for listening

 

[atra2]

To synethesize everyone else:

1) You roll the knowledge check, not him. Do the same for anyone else in the party.
Arguably, all knowledge checks are secret.

2) You need to have a 3x5 card with all party knowledge skills. Rangers, Bards, Druids, Clerics and even Rogues (Knowledge: Local, applies to humanoids in that region, even monstrous ones.) have these skills.

If you have everyone's knowledges and skill mods, you can simply ask for a d20 roll
from a player, apply the correct bonus, and give information or not. You don't even
need to tell them anything beyond "roll a skill check" or not even that.

Points in knowledge skills help prevent characters from auto-maxing other skills, or lead to considering a higher starting Intelligence score, both of which are good things.

 

[snarfoogle]

Let me give you an example of how he goes about this. First he wants to know if its a abberation, magical beast or whatever so that he can roll the correct knowledge check. I think that that should be his first roll. Roll a knowledge check and if its the right one then you can roll to see if you know anything about it. Make sense?

I don't think you need a check to determine creature type. If it looks like you, it's humanoid. If it's really tall, it's a giant. If it looks like it belongs in Rl'yeh waiting until the stars are aligned, it's an abberation.

You shouldn't let him pick and choose what he knows, though.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think my mistake is giving him the monster type so he knows what skill check to roll. From now on I'm going to have him give it his best guess to start and if he's wrong that's it.

If you do that, you're really screwing him. In his position, I'd start cheating right away to make sure I got fair use of my skills.

Like I said, just make him roll and take a guess at what his appropriate skill level is. It's likely that he's got all the skills at the same level.

 

[Mystery Man]

If you do that, you're really screwing him. In his position, I'd start cheating right away to make sure I got fair use of my skills.

Like I said, just make him roll and take a guess at what his appropriate skill level is. It's likely that he's got all the skills at the same level.

OK OK I give! I'll try it your way and see how it goes.

If you have everyone's knowledges and skill mods, you can simply ask for a d20 roll
from a player, apply the correct bonus, and give information or not. You don't even
need to tell them anything beyond "roll a skill check" or not even that.

Points in knowledge skills help prevent characters from auto-maxing other skills, or lead to considering a higher starting Intelligence score, both of which are good things.

I may run this across my players and see how well that idea is recieved.

 

[scranford]

I normally have my players make a Dungeoneering or Nature Knowledge check to determine what the creature is and its type. I set the DC based upon rarity or location of the Monster in referrence to the player. (ie. a player from the Northern Tundra area has a lower DC to know a Yeti than one from the desert). Once the type is determined they make a check based upon the creature type using the more specific skill (ie Knowledge Undead if its a dark skeleton) For example, I've never fought a shark but I know they are excited by blood, and motion, and they are fish. A shark expert may know the whale shark is not aggressive, therefore has more speciallized knowledge about it.)

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't think that rolling the Knowledge check in secret would give any benefit! It only matters what the DM tells the player about the creature. And according to the skill description, this it completely in the DM's hands since "pieces of useful information" are very VERY subjective...

For example, if you were to give 3 bits of info, would you tell the 3 strongest or the 3 weakest features of the monster? The 3 strongest are probably the most useful, and such you may be tempted to think they deserve a higher roll that the weakest ones. OTOH, people in the fantasy world are likely to know the strongest features of monsters, since that's what monsters become famous about! Everyone knows that red dragons breathe fire, but how many know that they can cast Locate Object?

Then there is the issue with description. "You see a skeletal creature with bits of rotten flesh... roll a Knowledge check!" "Which Knowledge?" "I'm not giving you tips about the TYPE!".

Knowledge is purposefully left vague, like also Gather Information for example. They are skills that rely very much on the DM, which is not a bad thing at all. I have normally given quite many "pieces of information" more that the number suggested and I think it works very fine just by checking against the base DC, and perhaps allowing for an extra check or two (with higher DC) for specific questions.

 

[Mulkhoran]

Then there is the issue with description. "You see a skeletal creature with bits of rotten flesh... roll a Knowledge check!" "Which Knowledge?" "I'm not giving you tips about the TYPE!".

So the guy with Knowledge(Undead) in your game has no better chance to identify something *as* undead, and as a *particular* undead, than the guy with Knowledge(Dungeoneering)? That seems irrational. The undead researcher should be able to more quickly ID undead, no?

And I'm not sure what you mean about Knowledge being vague like Gather Information, at least in 3.5. The Knowledge skill section has a lot more details in it about DCs, and specific knowledges, as well as the mechanic of 10+HD, and exceeding by 5. There's also a list of specific knowledge skills and what they cover. It doesn't seem anywhere near as vague as Gather Information, although I understand your general perspective.

 

[Li Shenron]

So the guy with Knowledge(Undead) in your game has no better chance to identify something *as* undead, and as a *particular* undead, than the guy with Knowledge(Dungeoneering)? That seems irrational. The undead researcher should be able to more quickly ID undead, no?

I don't know how have I given you the opposite idea Yes of course someone with Knowledge(Religion) is better in identifying undead, I just said that often the description already reveals something about the nature (type) of the creature, and that keeping Knowledge checks hidden is not much worth the extra booking job. My opinion is that letting the player know which Knowledge she is rolling is not bad. Better make an exception and call for a hidden roll only in special cases.

And I'm not sure what you mean about Knowledge being vague like Gather Information, at least in 3.5. The Knowledge skill section has a lot more details in it about DCs, and specific knowledges, as well as the mechanic of 10+HD, and exceeding by 5. There's also a list of specific knowledge skills and what they cover. It doesn't seem anywhere near as vague as Gather Information, although I understand your general perspective.

Well, there are skills whose DCs are defined pretty precisely. Knowledge and Gather Information have DCs defined pretty vaguely. That's what I meant, that what you can achieve with rolling a numeric result is not exact. I like that it is this way, because as a DM I feel more free to evaluate which "hints" to give to the players (because that's what these skills are for at the end).