Knowledge: Local?

[DonTadow]

Good, then I'm going with the skill as it is applied in the FRCS setting. Since that is the only way it makes sense and doesn't trample on the balliwick of several other skills.

[/i]

Then explain what makes the Knowledge: Local skill different from the Knowledge: Geography skill.

[/i]

The problem with this interpretation is that it essentially results in the Knowledge: Local skill taking the role of several other skills - why would anyone invest in Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Knowledge: History, Knowledge: Geography and so on if you get it all wrapped up in one big package with Knowledge: Local?

[/i]

First off, I didn't say that they didn't know anything about other religions, I said that they had a penalty to checks related to other religions. In any event, knowing much about one's own religion and limited amounts about other faiths would make you very much like a religious scholar of the middle ages - like say, Saint Dominic, or Saint Aquinas.

1. Forgotten Realms is a variant rule that you can use, not SRD Raw. IMHO, it really defeats the purpose of the knowledge local skill unless you're not going to be doing a heck of a lot of traveling.

The difference between knowledge local and knowledge geography is clearly laid out in the PHB.

Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)- meaning i can find rivers, mountains, hills, deserts and know what type of climates we are going into in these region. I can find landmarks and geographical forms.

Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)- meaning from research, legend, word of mouth I know about various things in this city. Their local legends, whose famous in teh city, the NAME of the mayor, how these people dress waht type of people they are. I may have never been there and I don't need to, I have read much about these people through books and again meating people from the region who have traveled to my locale.

Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)- Meaning I know extensive history about nobilities from different regiions though I am not too much on the people. I do know who in the hierchy is related to who, how these people act, what they like and high checks may tell me secret dealings I have heard.

History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)- You know about the history of the city and particular events that shaped the history but only minor stuff about customs and such.

Sorry let me clarify that statement (bad word usage). According to the logic that I have been given so far, people are saying that a character only picks up knowledge local from their experiences in their own city. They don't read books about other lands nor come in contact with people of those lands. There are no scholars inthe other lands whom know about other places.

As far as the religion remark, I am all for giving bonus's to knowledge religion check if its your religion, but subtracting from the knowledge religion because it is not ours again defeats the purpose. The SRD relates knowledge religion to religous theologists of midevil and modern times whom study all religions, just so they can at least counterpoint it with their own religion.

By giving them a penality, you are limiting the skill and deminishing its value in the game. By providinig a bonus to their own religion you are acknowledging their background in their faith.

 

[DonTadow]

To me it seems like it should be a broad skill. I know it has been said before, but all the other skills take into account all the various varieties. Say, for example:

Handle Animal. Now, a peson can't be familiar with all animal types. There isn't that much time in the world! But they can learn generalities about how animals respond and how to interact. Essentially, they are learning how to organize what is important and what isn't about all animal behavior.

Listen. We don't have Listen: outside, Listen: Urban noise, Listen: treading of feet, etc. And let me tell you, listening for a specific noise in the woods is a completely different ability than listening for a certain noise in the urban location, which is a completely different skill that listening for any noise to break the silence and deciphering what that skill is. To listen in the wild means to be able to ignore the common noises of squirrels, the wind, rustling of leaves, etc. To listen in an urban environment means to filter out everyone else' conversations and pick up the one you want to hear. To listen for any noise to break the silence takes patience, ability to breathe quietly and sit still, etc.

Disable Device: Need I go into how many devices there are out there? First off, not all traps are the same. Some are metal, some are stone, some are rope, some are wires, some are parts of all of these. You can't possibly be familiar with all of them, but we allow the skill to represent all of them.Disable device allows the player to know general information about disbling something that is inteded to work in a certain order. If we wanted to nitpick we should have different disable device checks for metal, rope, string, metal pins, rock, etc. But we don't, because it would make the game WAY too complex.

This same thing can be said for the rest of the skill checks. [Especially appraise, I mean c'mon. Or any of the knowledge checks. You can't possibly know all the stuff about arcana, psionics, the planes, religion, dungeons, the different kinds of geographies, etc.]

My theory is that the skill ranks basically give your character skill in dealing with and deciphering information and using it appropriately. The disable device checks lets the rogue analyze the lock and apply a general knowledge to a specific case. The handle animal check lets the character apply general knowledge about animals to a specific case. The appraise check lets a character apply general knowledge about worthiness of items to a specific case. Same thing with all the other skills. And same thing with Kn:Local.

See, as your characters roam about the land, they hear snippets of other conversations, etc. Things that aren't roleplayed because God that would be boring to roleplay everything your character hears. When you enter a tavern - the only thing going on isn't just what is happening to your characters, but the DM can't describe everything, either. So what makes the most sense to me is to say that a person with a few ranks in the Kn:Local check is skilled at knowing what parts of what he hears is important and what parts are just local legend and scuttlebutt. A character with Kn:Local has a better than average time figuring out what makes a town work, what are the townsfolks fears and joys (like local legends, etc). They have an easier time deciphering the stories they hear and applying it to this specific situation - whatever town they are in.

So, needless to say, I interpret Kn:Local broadly. It isn't Knowledge:Locale in my book, it is Knowledge:Local. It is not specific knowledge about a specific town ... that would be Knowledge:Locale. Instead, it means you are skilled at understanding what the primary motivations behind a city/town/whatever is. It means you understand how to pick up and use the hundreds of snippets of information that you receive every minute through your senses and you can apply them to understand your present location better. That's Knowledge:Local. That makes it a much more useful skill, and it puts it in line with the rest of the skills, too.

If you make people use Knowledge:Local as a skill for a specific place, you are doing Knowledge:Locale. If you let people use this skill as the ability to interpret their present surroundings, that's Knowledge:Local.

You practically read my mind about disable device. LOL

In my previous campaigns few picked knowledge skills outside of arcane and now I see why if the thought pattern of localizing it is the general consesus. in my homebrew, I try to make knowledge skills just as important as the others by letting them keep their potency.

 

[werk]

So, needless to say, I interpret Kn:Local broadly. It isn't Knowledge:Locale in my book, it is Knowledge:Local. It is not specific knowledge about a specific town ... that would be Knowledge:Locale. Instead, it means you are skilled at understanding what the primary motivations behind a city/town/whatever is. It means you understand how to pick up and use the hundreds of snippets of information that you receive every minute through your senses and you can apply them to understand your present location better. That's Knowledge:Local. That makes it a much more useful skill, and it puts it in line with the rest of the skills, too.

If you make people use Knowledge:Local as a skill for a specific place, you are doing Knowledge:Locale. If you let people use this skill as the ability to interpret their present surroundings, that's Knowledge:Local.

I think that it is meant to be a specific place, or as you put it, locale. I looked up local and the first 3 definitions seem to match what you think a locale is.

1.a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a particular place: a local custom; the local slang.
1.b. Of or relating to a city, town, or district rather than a larger area: state and local government.
2. Not broad or general; not widespread: local outbreaks of flu.

FWIW I think the skill is pretty worthless unless your campaign only takes place in one area or city. It's a great skill for NPCs

 

[Storm Raven]

1. Forgotten Realms is a variant rule that you can use, not SRD Raw. IMHO, it really defeats the purpose of the knowledge local skill unless you're not going to be doing a heck of a lot of traveling.

Actually the FRCS is an interpretation of a rule, which is different from a variant rule. Or, as I view it, the way the rule is intended to be applied (an application not contradictory to the core rules by the way).

The difference between knowledge local and knowledge geography is clearly laid out in the PHB.

Except that the differences you are drawing illustruate that your interpretation limits the broad skills such as Knowledge: Geography, and Knowledge: History, subsuming them into the superskill Knowledge: Local. While it seems that (in your view) the other knowledge skills don't cover everything that Knowledge" Local does, Knowledge: Local covers pretty much everything those other skills do.

Sorry let me clarify that statement (bad word usage). According to the logic that I have been given so far, people are saying that a character only picks up knowledge local from their experiences in their own city. They don't read books about other lands nor come in contact with people of those lands. There are no scholars inthe other lands whom know about other places.

I think you are shooting at a straw man then. I don't think anyone has made that argument, I certainly haven't. The Knowledge: Local guy is the guy who has spent a lot of time studying about the material related to a region - he's the guy who knows everything there is to know about the history of San Francisco or California, for example, but is weak on what happened in the Ottoman Empire in the 19th Century.

As far as the religion remark, I am all for giving bonus's to knowledge religion check if its your religion, but subtracting from the knowledge religion because it is not ours again defeats the purpose. The SRD relates knowledge religion to religous theologists of midevil and modern times whom study all religions, just so they can at least counterpoint it with their own religion.

By giving them a penality, you are limiting the skill and deminishing its value in the game. By providinig a bonus to their own religion you are acknowledging their background in their faith.

Yes, I am limiting its value, to some extent. The individual who knows lots and lots about the practices and doctrine of the Church of Belin does not know as much about the rituals observed by the Demon Cult of Juturna. Go figure.

 

[DonTadow]

Actually the FRCS is an interpretation of a rule, which is different from a variant rule. Or, as I view it, the way the rule is intended to be applied (an application not contradictory to the core rules by the way).

[/i]

Except that the differences you are drawing illustruate that your interpretation limits the broad skills such as Knowledge: Geography, and Knowledge: History, subsuming them into the superskill Knowledge: Local. While it seems that (in your view) the other knowledge skills don't cover everything that Knowledge" Local does, Knowledge: Local covers pretty much everything those other skills do.

[/i]

I think you are shooting at a straw man then. I don't think anyone has made that argument, I certainly haven't. The Knowledge: Local guy is the guy who has spent a lot of time studying about the material related to a region - he's the guy who knows everything there is to know about the history of San Francisco or California, for example, but is weak on what happened in the Ottoman Empire in the 19th Century.

[/i]

Yes, I am limiting its value, to some extent. The individual who knows lots and lots about the practices and doctrine of the Church of Belin does not know as much about the rituals observed by the Demon Cult of Juturna. Go figure.

In the SRD, it is written what Knowledge Local is. I do not understand how you interpret the SRD definition to be "define the local". There is no such word usage like such in the SRD that breaks down any other skill, despite, as previously written, there would obviously be a dozen skills that could be broken down to make better sense. How do you explain those skills NOT being broke down and yet stand so adamantly about breaking down local?

Back to the subject, there is nothing at all stating that hte FRCS is another "interpretation because none of the evidence backs it up. Knowledge local is a line at best. What is there to interpret there. THat is what is so interesting about this subject. There's not much to interpret and people are adding an E at the end of local. I'm sure they used the word local so not to use words uch as cities, villages and hamlets which would have been to narrow.


My definitions do not limit, they only put the skills in their proper place. All of those skills have broad implications and can be very important in a campaign. It defines the skills. Putting local skills with history skills just lumps everything into one category. In that case why not just have "knowledge" as the skill.

You mentioned the guy who knows everything about california, where is the guy whom knows about major U.S. cities? Does he not exist? Thats where i was going with.

 

[ARandomGod]

I think that it is meant to be a specific place, or as you put it, locale. I looked up local and the first 3 definitions seem to match what you think a locale is.

1.a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a particular place: a local custom; the local slang.
1.b. Of or relating to a city, town, or district rather than a larger area: state and local government.
2. Not broad or general; not widespread: local outbreaks of flu.

FWIW I think the skill is pretty worthless unless your campaign only takes place in one area or city. It's a great skill for NPCs

This only supports my statement above that the skill is poorly worded. The description clearly states that it applies to ALL things local, no matter where that local is. The use of the word "local" in the description creates a connotation that is not supported in the rules and tempts people to look outside the rules to justify applying the connotation they recieved.

Allow me to retort. Definitions (I'll use yours):
1.a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a particular place: a local custom; the local slang.
1.b. Of or relating to a city, town, or district rather than a larger area: state and local government.
2. Not broad or general; not widespread:

There you are. I agree with that. Now I say that a character with knowledge (Local) has knowledge of all these local things, whenever these things are local to him. So if he's in one area, he knows anything that's local to that area. If he moves (physically or just mentally) he knows anything that would be local to THAT area. Simple. Also a viewpoint supported in the actual skill description, without applying connotation.


For instance

I am one that believes K:local should be 'local'.

I agree with this. And anything that's local to the characters current condition, mentally of physically, is covered under Knowlege: Local. Provided, of course, that it also falls under what the skill description says is known...

 

[Storm Raven]

This only supports my statement above that the skill is poorly worded. The description clearly states that it applies to ALL things local, no matter where that local is. The use of the word "local" in the description creates a connotation that is not supported in the rules and tempts people to look outside the rules to justify applying the connotation they recieved.

Allow me to retort. Definitions (I'll use yours):
1.a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a particular place: a local custom; the local slang.
1.b. Of or relating to a city, town, or district rather than a larger area: state and local government.
2. Not broad or general; not widespread:

There you are. I agree with that. Now I say that a character with knowledge (Local) has knowledge of all these local things, whenever these things are local to him. So if he's in one area, he knows anything that's local to that area. If he moves (physically or just mentally) he knows anything that would be local to THAT area. Simple. Also a viewpoint supported in the actual skill description, without applying connotation.

So, in your interpretaion, the skill would be better named Knowledge: Everything?

 

[Storm Raven]

In the SRD, it is written what Knowledge Local is. I do not understand how you interpret the SRD definition to be "define the local". There is no such word usage like such in the SRD that breaks down any other skill, despite, as previously written, there would obviously be a dozen skills that could be broken down to make better sense. How do you explain those skills NOT being broke down and yet stand so adamantly about breaking down local?

That would be the result of the name "Local". You see, part of the description of the skill is the name of the skill, which your interpretation basically ignores. Instead, your version of the skill would be named "Knowledge: Everything".

Back to the subject, there is nothing at all stating that hte FRCS is another "interpretation because none of the evidence backs it up. Knowledge local is a line at best. What is there to interpret there. THat is what is so interesting about this subject. There's not much to interpret and people are adding an E at the end of local. I'm sure they used the word local so not to use words uch as cities, villages and hamlets which would have been to narrow.

We have the evidence that that is how the skill is actually used by those designing material for the creators of the game system. Given that this is how the skill is applied in actual usage, it seems like strong evidence that this was what was intended, as opposed to making it a infinitly morphable superskill that obviates half of the remaining knowledge specialties.

My definitions do not limit, they only put the skills in their proper place. All of those skills have broad implications and can be very important in a campaign. It defines the skills. Putting local skills with history skills just lumps everything into one category. In that case why not just have "knowledge" as the skill.

Except that your definition makes it silly to put any ranks in most other knowledge skills, when you can just go with the superskill Knowledge: Local, and get everything.

You mentioned the guy who knows everything about california, where is the guy whom knows about major U.S. cities? Does he not exist? Thats where i was going with.

Then he would define his area of local knowledge as "U.S. Cities". I'm not sure what is hard about this concept.

 

[ARandomGod]

So, in your interpretaion, the skill would be better named Knowledge: Everything?

Yes, knowledge, Everything Local.

Or, to be more precise, it would be:
Knowlege (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids).

Which is what it says it is in the skill description.

 

[Storm Raven]

Yes, knowledge, Everything Local.

Or, to be more precise, it would be:
Knowlege (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids).

Which is what it says it is in the skill description.

Actually, the skill description says:

Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids).

Your reading simply bypasses the "Local" part. And since you morph the content of the skill based upon where you happen to be at the moment, it basically writes the "Local" out of the equation. The character, apparently, simply knows everything there is to know.

Which simply cannot be correct. Since that would make the other knowledge skills completely useless. Why bother with Knowledge: History, when you can take Knowledge: Local and know everything there is to know about history and a bunch of other stuff?